Lechmere-Cross bye bye

[Fisherman]

Well it is a fact that you haven't answered many questions that I have asked you so no "pretending" is actually necessary.

Not having answered and not having been able to answer are not the same. So it´s pretending alright.

Gotta go.

[Fisherman]

Is that to say that Jack the Ripper had the intent of manipulating the police from the very onset of his murderous scheme? Or did he get caught and had to find a way to "fake his way" out of it?

It´s not to say anything at all but to answer your question.

[Fisherman]

In a sane world that would be the end of the discussion.

Would that not depend on who had the definition rights of what a sane world is?

[David Orsam]

Not having answered and not having been able to answer are not the same.

No but, like I said, I draw my own conclusions about your reason for not answering my questions.

[David Orsam]

Now perhaps?

Now, what?



See, thing is, if he thinks I'm going to reveal all if he just keeps quiet then there's no incentive for him to ask me.

So let's see if he does.

[For Fisherman: this is actually genuine. I'm reluctant to even tell you because it will only encourage your timing gap argument but happy to do so, despite your refusals to answer my questions, if you want to know.]

[Robert St Devil]

It´s not to say anything at all but to answer your question.

Ha! Fair enough. Sure the plate is full at the moment without getting into why Jack the ripper would have worked with the police.

[Ausgirl]

What serial killer/murderer has ever worked with the police on solving their murder case? That sounds like a Stephen King book!

Petiot. Kurten. Kemper. Off the top of my head..

[drstrange169]

Hello David,

... if Paul thought he left his house at 3.44 but his timepiece was fast

Also keep in mind that we don't know Paul even owned a timepiece. He may have been woken by a "knocker upper", like so many in the area and simply assumed the time from that persons actions.

[Columbo]

Petiot. Kurten. Kemper. Off the top of my head..

How do you figure? Kemper confessed, Kurten was identified by a rape victim and Petiot was on the lamb from the cops after they discovered bodies in his house.

[Errata]

How do you figure? Kemper confessed, Kurten was identified by a rape victim and Petiot was on the lamb from the cops after they discovered bodies in his house.

They interacted with the police. They didn't assist the police.

[Ausgirl]

How do you figure? Kemper confessed, Kurten was identified by a rape victim and Petiot was on the lamb from the cops after they discovered bodies in his house.

All three initiated direct contact with police while committing their crimes. Either to mislead police or keep tabs on the investigation, maybe both. So they might have appeared helpful or innocently curious, but weren't.

If these men were never caught, they might still be regarded simply as concerned citizens.

Not that I think Lechmere is the Ripper. But there have been killers who have used police and the courts in their attempts to avoid arrest (as well as it being an act of arrogant smugness, in some cases). It could be argued that if he was the Ripper, it was in his interest to find 'legitimate' reasons to talk to police.. and proactively insert himself as a witness. And many non-serial killers have done exactly that.

[Billiou]

A Note on Census Records

A Note on Census Records

My main hobby has been genealogy for the last 6 years, and in doing so I have look at hundreds (if not thousands) of Census records, and have a fairly good understanding of their background.

The British Census records that we have pre-1911 are not primary sources. The process was that an “enumerator” was paid to service a district, usually anything from 100 to 400 households (sometimes more). Their job was to distribute the census forms, collect them, and then transfer all the information from each individual census form into their “enumerator book”. There were complaints from enumerators that the workload was too great and the pay was not enough. Some enumerators even registered their protest in their books. In early census' where illiteracy was still a problem (especially in poorer areas) the enumeraror would take the details from a person in the house and record them on the doorstep (and there are even records that show the enumerator asked the person next door for details of the people in a house!).

So what we look at now when we see pre-1911 Census records are only copies of the enumerators' books. The Government, in their wisdom, decided during the first world war that due to a paper shortage that they would pulp and recyle ALL the original census forms prior to 1911. That is why when you see a 1911 Census record it is an individual form, filled out by the householder (usually by the father as head of the house), and when you see a pre-1911 census record the page usually contains many households.

The problem with this is that we are now dependent on what the enumerator copied into their books. This has lead to many misspellings of people's names, their ages and their places of birth (quite understandable as the enumerator had to try to decipher people's handwriting, and were under pressure to complete their tasks on time – not easy when you dealing with many, many households). And believe me, these cause all sorts of headaches for genealogists!

From my experience, in households were the mother had remarried, it was unusual for her children from a previous marriage to adopt the stepfather's name. An official adoption process did not come into being until the 1920s/1930s. You find that most census records don't even mention the fact that they were step-sons or step-daughters – another headache for the genealogist. Adopting the name could happen, it is just in my experience that it was unusual.

The other problem with dealing with the transcriptions of the census forms was that sometimes the enumerator would make a mistake in copying the details over to their book (besides the normal misspellings). You occasionally find a household were the mother and father have been left off the record, even though you know they were there as the record in the house shows that children only live there, and the parents are not to be found in any other search. A lazy enumerator could also go overboard with “the ditto” and fail to record a different surname in the house and just continue with dittos.

So basically what I am saying is, do not put 100% faith in the accuracy of a census record, keep in mind that we are dealing with a secondary source and should be checked against other sources to confirm their accuracy.

[Billiou]

Hello David,
Also keep in mind that we don't know Paul even owned a timepiece. He may have been woken by a "knocker upper", like so many in the area and simply assumed the time from that persons actions.

It would be interesting to know how the populace kept track of time in their everyday life throughout the 19th Century. I have heard that with the advent of the railways in the 1850s that this forced the country to adopt a consistent time, and brought about better timepieces so people could meet the timetable.

This, of course, would have taken a greater time to filter down through the various classes.

I hope maybe someone may have an expertise in this history and could maybe share it with the message boards. More for my own education and interest, if for not anything else!

[Columbo]

All three initiated direct contact with police while committing their crimes. Either to mislead police or keep tabs on the investigation, maybe both. So they might have appeared helpful or innocently curious, but weren't.

If these men were never caught, they might still be regarded simply as concerned citizens.

Not that I think Lechmere is the Ripper. But there have been killers who have used police and the courts in their attempts to avoid arrest (as well as it being an act of arrogant smugness, in some cases). It could be argued that if he was the Ripper, it was in his interest to find 'legitimate' reasons to talk to police.. and proactively insert himself as a witness. And many non-serial killers have done exactly that.

Interesting. I think the Swedish one that Fisherman mentions is really strange. A cop who was a killer investigating his own crimes.

[drstrange169]

Hello Billiou,

Time across Britain wasn't officially standardised until 1880.

More pertinent perhaps to this discussion, L.N.W.R (Broad Street Station) adopted the standardised time in the late 1840's, 1847 I think, and set all their clocks by it.

Providing he was telling the truth, Xmere's claim of arriving at Broad Street at four o'clock, was probably the only accurate time given by anybody that night.

PS Thanks for the info on census taking, very enlighting!