Lechmere-Cross bye bye

[Columbo]

It's also untrue that the people you named have not come up with new ideas. For instance, I've written extensively, offering a different and, I think, more reasonable explanation of Mizen and his behavior around Buck's Row. As well, I've researched Lechmere's life and posted what I've found. Further, MANY of us have posted our own "ideas" that have nothing to do with Lechmere. So, you won't find them here, on the Crossmere threads.

Well, you certainly have not come up with anything new on this thread lately. I've read plenty of your other posts on other subjects and you are bright about what you speak. I've never insulted that. But I stand but what I say.

Last thing. Not to be overly complimentary to my fellow posters as I may come to regret it, but most everyone here is very intelligent and quick witted. They know this stuff inside out. Finding little insults and jabs in responses is part of the ambiance on this board. It's sometimes fun and sometimes not so much. Stop trying to referee. Stop trying to speak for your fellow posters motivations (i.e. jealousy) and, for GOD'S sake, stop trying to be "Fisheman's" hype-man, or bodyguard, or schoolyard defender, or whatever you're trying to do. He didn't ask for it and certainly doesn't need it.

When you read these posts you can tell the difference between the "quick witted" (like Harry) and the ones who are just flat out angry and jealous. You can deny it it but that doesn't make a bit of difference. You don't want anyone to agree with Fisherman and that's obvious. You're guilty of everything you've just accused me of doing but in a different direction. It's ok but it's not gonna change anything I post and it won't change yours. I'll defend and agree as I see fit. So should you. Now relax or I'll start a new thread accusing you of being JTR!

I would probably take you a little more seriously if you didn't feel the need to act like a little b**ch on a thread and just PM'd me.

Columbo

[Columbo]

I salute your efforts to encourage all parts to move away from the timings issue, to begin with! So over to the question you ask:

Hereīs the thing:

If we look at the normally accepted string of murders, Nichols-Chapman-Stride-Eddowes-Kelly, then we can see that three out of these five victims were killed along the logical routes for the carman between his home and work: Nichols-Chapman-Kelly.
All of these three victims were, if we believe the medicos, killed at hours that seemingly correspond with the approximate times when Lechmere would have passed them.
Not so Stride and Eddowes, who died a lot earlier, and NOT along the carmanīs logical routes to work.
Why?
Well, to begon with, they did not die on a regular working day - they died on the night of a Saturday, meaning that if Lechmere followed the regular working schedule, he had the next day off.
Having the next day off was what opened up possibilitites for an Eastender in regular employment to make the Saturday evening an evening out. You could pay visits to friends and relatives, you could go out to a pub and stay out late, cause you were free the next day.
Liz Stride died in Dutfields Yard, Berner Street, St Georgeīs-in-the-East. She died at around 1 AM. A very short way from Dutfields Yard Mary Ann Street. Here, Lechmereīs mother lived together with one of his daughters.
It is easy to envisage a scenario where Lechmere had payed a visit to his motherīs place on that Sunday, and how he found and killed Stride on his way home. Similarly, he may have been on a pub round or visiting old friends - Berner Street was smack, bang in the midst of the houses where Lechmere had grown up and lived until a few weeks before the Ripper murders began.
Speculation has it that after killing Stride, a frustrated Ripper walked west to Mitre Square, where he found, killed and mutilated Kate Eddowes.
The logical route from Berner Street to Mitre Square goes along Lechmeres old trek to work from James Street (todays Burslem Street). Mitre Square is a copule of hundred yards from the Pickfords depot in Broad Street. And a straight line from Mitre Square to 22 Doveton Street will more or less take us past the doorway in Goulston Street where the apron piece carried away from the Mitre Square murder site was subsequently dropped.

Now, make the assumption that we swop murder dates for these victims. Letīs say that Nichols was killed on the Eddowes murder date and Eddowes on the Nichols murder date, and that Stride was killed on the Kelly murder date, whereas Kelly was slain on the Stride date.
What happens?
Well, then we have Nichols being killed in the right spot for Lechmere to have been the killer, but on the wrong date, since he probably had his day off, we have Eddowes being killed in a spot where Lechmere had no reason to be on his early morning job trek, we have Stride getting whacked on the wrong place and Kelly at what was seemingly the wrong time.
Move one bit of the puzzle and the accusations against Lechmere crumble.
Leave it as it is, and he seems to fit in every single part.

This will have me studying the maps tonight! I appreciate the info.

Another, possibly dumb question that may have already been addressed. Do any of Pickfords records survive from that time? I was thinking that the carmans obviously have schedules and delivery receipts that, if existed, may help us understand Lechmere's movements.

Columbo

[David Orsam]

From my latest post to you:

Now, if you cannot conclusively prove that I have claimed as a proven fact that there is a time gap, this discussion is over.

And there it rests.

So you've ducked the question again, no surprise there Fisherman.

I have no idea why I need to "conclusively prove" that you have claimed as "a proven fact" that there is a time gap. I've never said that you have claimed as a proven fact that there is a time gap. That is why I ignored your previous statement.

But I will say that you have certainly challenged my claim that the "9 minute gap" is a gap of fiction which should not be repeated. And you have now said in this thread that it seems that "there is a major gap in Lechmere's timings". That is what I'm challenging.

Furthermore, to try and clarify what you are saying, in my previous question I expressly asked whether you agreed or disagreed with the statement that there is a major time gap and you decided not to respond.

What more can I do?

But if you don't want to answer questions from me designed to try to get to the bottom of this matter there is nothing I can do.

[GUT]

This will have me studying the maps tonight! I appreciate the info.

Another, possibly dumb question that may have already been addressed. Do any of Pickfords records survive from that time? I was thinking that the carmans obviously have schedules and delivery receipts that, if existed, may help us understand Lechmere's movements.

Columbo

It seems no (little records) survive or we might know what name he was known by there, and what he actually carted.

[Patrick S]

When you read these posts you can tell the difference between the "quick witted" (like Harry) and the ones who are just flat out angry and jealous. You can deny it it but that doesn't make a bit of difference. You don't want anyone to agree with Fisherman and that's obvious. You're guilty of everything you've just accused me of doing but in a different direction. It's ok but it's not gonna change anything I post and it won't change yours. I'll defend and agree as I see fit. So should you. Now relax or I'll start a new thread accusing you of being JTR!

I would probably take you a little more seriously if you didn't feel the need to act like a little b**ch on a thread and just PM'd me.

Columbo

Quite a rational response. For all of our edification, please post this Private Message you claim that I sent you. I'd love to read it since I'm quite sure I didn't write it.

[Columbo]

It seems no (little records) survive or we might know what name he was known by there, and what he actually carted.

Thanks, I kind of figured that was explored but I thought maybe if any other documents, not necessarily about Lechmere, existed it would give us a picture of the processes a victorian cartman had to use.

Columbo

[Columbo]

Quite a rational response. For all of our edification, please post this Private Message you claim that I sent you. I'd love to read it since I'm quite sure I didn't write it.

I said if you had PMd me instead I would've taken you more seriously. For the record you did not send me a PM although you are more than welcome.

It was quite rational wasn't it? Almost as rational as my computer time joke.

Columbo

[GUT]

Thanks, I kind of figured that was explored but I thought maybe if any other documents, not necessarily about Lechmere, existed it would give us a picture of the processes a victorian cartman had to use.

Columbo

I'm not sure there was anything complex about the job. Drive the cart. Depending on what was being carried probably didn't even handle the goods (in spite of claims if blood from meat etc) that was the offsiders job the Carman was the driver and would watch, care for and control the horses while loading and unloading was going on.

[Patrick S]

I said if you had PMd me instead I would've taken you more seriously. For the record you did not send me a PM although you are more than welcome.

It was quite rational wasn't it? Almost as rational as my computer time joke.

Columbo

AH! Honest mistake. Trying to understand your grammar and sentence structure is - I must confess - sometimes beyond me. Please continue advocating for and defending "Fisherman's" Crossmere theory! I'm sure he's very appreciative, having someone of your intellectual heft in his corner.

I'll pass on the PM invitation. No offense. I don't think we have much in common. I appreciate the invitation, though.

[MrBarnett]

It seems no (little records) survive or we might know what name he was known by there, and what he actually carted.

It seems that the goods station was open seven days a week, and that a regular Scotch Meat train arrived on a Sunday. So Lechmere may well have worked on a Sunday.

[Columbo]

AH! Honest mistake. Trying to understand your grammar and sentence structure is - I must confess - sometimes beyond me. Please continue advocating for and defending "Fisherman's" Crossmere theory! I'm sure he's very appreciative, having someone of your intellectual heft in his corner.

I'll pass on the PM invitation. No offense. I don't think we have much in common. I appreciate the invitation, though.

I see you can be witty as well! Good show old boy!

[Ben]

Returning to the "name change" business; if he was known as Lechmere at work, there was literally no possibility of this detail failing to come to the attention of the police and arousing their suspicions. The only possibilities, therefore, are that a) he was known as Cross at work, or b) he was known as Lechmere at work, but made as much clear to the police, who were happy for him to use the name Cross for the purpose of the investigation.

[GUT]

It seems that the goods station was open seven days a week, and that a regular Scotch Meat train arrived on a Sunday. So Lechmere may well have worked on a Sunday.

Not out of the question at all.

[Columbo]

I'm not sure there was anything complex about the job. Drive the cart. Depending on what was being carried probably didn't even handle the goods (in spite of claims if blood from meat etc) that was the offsiders job the Carman was the driver and would watch, care for and control the horses while loading and unloading was going on.

I imagine it was quite a challenge to maneuver a horse and cart through victorian busy streets.

If I'm understanding correctly, a cart man, for numerous reasons, would most likely not be able to leave his horse and cart UN-attended. Would that be a fair statement?

Columbo

[Fisherman]

This will have me studying the maps tonight! I appreciate the info.

Another, possibly dumb question that may have already been addressed. Do any of Pickfords records survive from that time? I was thinking that the carmans obviously have schedules and delivery receipts that, if existed, may help us understand Lechmere's movements.

Columbo

Sadly no - we were generously granted access to the Pickfords registers and files a year or two back, but they do not stretch that far back in time!