Charles Lechmere: Prototypical Life of a Serial Killer

[Doctored Whatsit]

"Not far off" involves every time that is close to 3.45, including 3.44.59. That IS less than an hour and a quarter, I'm afraid.

It is another matter that I personally think that what the coroner was trying to say was "no more than an hour and a quarter afterwards, she was found dead", and worded himself badly. Of course, drawn to its harshest conclusion, "no more than" ALSO can be seen as saying "before 3.45", but what the coroner was in all probability trying to convey was not an exact positioning of the latest possible time of death, but instead he commented on how a life was cut short in a very brutal and quick way - one second, you are speaking to a friend, and the next, you are lying cold and dead in Bucks Row.

This is how I see it, and accordingly, if you are going to claim that the body, as per the coroner, must have been found before 3.45, in spite of how he said that the body must have been found "at a time not far off 3.45" - meaning that he used 3.45 as a CENTER suggestion, not a far extreme one, I am going to stick to how 3.44.59 IS before 3.45. And it is also the time that is CLOSEST to the coroners estimation, and so the likeliest time.

3.44.59 it is, then. Fine by me.

Lol. OK Christer, have it your way. When Baxter formally concluded in his summing up that the body was found before 3. 45 am, he obviously meant 3. 44 am and 59 seconds. What else!

Another cracker! It's the way you tell'em .....

[Fiver]

"Attire" doesn't mean a single piece of clothing.

We can add that to the list of English words that Fisherman doesn't seem to understand, along with oozing, tottering, cliffhanger, evidence, coincidence, and at.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What I would like to know is how someone who was working 14 to 18 hours per day and lived with his wife and nine children, and presumably had to sleep some time at home, could possibly have found the time to stalk prostitutes.

The very fact that he stands accused of murdering women while on his way to work does seem to suggest that he was remarkably short of time in which to look for victims.

[Mark J D]

... if the working burden of Lechmere grew heavier in the late 1880´s, then that will likely have carried stress with itself. And the fact that he had a simple enough job has nothing at all to do with that [...]. An increased working burden will have taken away from the time he could shape himself, and it would also likely physically tear him down, also resulting in greater stress. We know quite well that stress factors are important markers in a serial killers life, and we also know that this is often linked to how the killer feels that he is deprived of control over his own lifeuite .

Hi, Christer. Something that has often crossed my mind is the way a clinically narcissistic personality -- hyper-aware of increasing age, and obsessed by the unrealistic idea that he matters, dammit! -- would react to something like an endlessly lengthening walk to work in the wee hours. Maryann Street to Haydon Square: 650m. James Street to Haydon Square: 810m. James Street to Broad Street: 1.6km. Doveton Street to Broad Street: 2.1km. Doveton Street to Poplar High Street: 3.2km. For someone in the grip of, inter alia, narcissistic personality disorder, this is a progression in absolutely the wrong direction. (You will be aware of the speculative elements in the preceding.) We may even hypothesise that the mid-1888 move out to Doveton Street -- an astonishing development, on the face of it! -- was forced on him for some reason, making it even more of a triggering experience for someone with serious personality disorders of the type we imagine.

Bests,

Mark D.

[John Wheat]

Yeah, you know, I was always like that; I always disliked being called a fraudster and a liar by people who had nothing at all to prove their accusations by but their personal convictions. It IS perhaps touchy, but we are all different - in many ways.

Sometimes you get what you deserve.

[Mark J D]

What I would like to know is how someone who was working 14 to 18 hours per day and lived with his wife and nine children, and presumably had to sleep some time at home, could possibly have found the time to stalk prostitutes.

The very fact that he stands accused of murdering women while on his way to work does seem to suggest that he was remarkably short of time in which to look for victims.

If you'd like to re-write that without the straw-manning and the word-salad, it might be worth responding to. As it is, it doesn't even make proper sense.

M.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If you'd like to re-write that without the straw-manning and the word-salad, it might be worth responding to. As it is, it doesn't even make proper sense.

M.

According to Google:


word salad

1. a confused or unintelligible mixture of seemingly random words and phrases, specifically (in psychiatry) as a form of speech indicative of advanced schizophrenia.

I am waiting to see whether anyone agrees with your 'diagnosis', if that is indeed what you really meant.

I think what I wrote is perfectly intelligible and the vast majority of readers will agree with me.

[Lewis C]

According to Google:


word salad

1. a confused or unintelligible mixture of seemingly random words and phrases, specifically (in psychiatry) as a form of speech indicative of advanced schizophrenia.

I am waiting to see whether anyone agrees with your 'diagnosis', if that is indeed what you really meant.

I think what I wrote is perfectly intelligible and the vast majority of readers will agree with me.

Hi PI,

I find your post perfectly clear. I don't know what part Mark is having trouble understanding. I'm also trying to figure out what part of it he considers a straw man. My best guess is that he thinks the "stalking prostitutes" part is a straw man, that his view is that Lechmerians don't think that Lechmere stalked prostitutes.

[Fiver]

What I would like to know is how someone who was working 14 to 18 hours per day and lived with his wife and nine children, and presumably had to sleep some time at home, could possibly have found the time to stalk prostitutes.

The very fact that he stands accused of murdering women while on his way to work does seem to suggest that he was remarkably short of time in which to look for victims.

This has been repeatedly pointed out to Fisherman.

Killing on the way to work would leave very little time to look for a victim, mutilate her, and try to clean up. It would mean showing up to work with possible fresh blood on hands and clothing, which would raise questions. But if other people could be avoided, the darkness could hide the blood.

Killing at work would give more flexibility as to when, but would still leave very little time to look for a victim, mutilate her, and try to clean up. It would require leaving the van unattended, which would risk theft and leave a lot of explaining as to why the cart was left unattended. And through the entire remainder of daylight hours, there would be a chance for every customer and maybe passersby to notice fresh, unexplained bloodstains on the killer's hands and clothing.

Killing after work would give several hours to look for a victim, mutilate her, and try to clean up. Lateness returning home could be explained by claiming to have a longer shift. This would also be killing after dark, so if other people could be avoided, the darkness could hide the blood.

Killing in the middle of the night would require getting up and sneaking out without anyone else in the household noticing. There would be no way of avoiding the risk of someone else waking up and noticing their absence, and especially high risk with the youngest not old enough to consistently sleep through the night. It would give several hours to look for a victim, mutilate her, and try to clean up. This would also be killing after dark, so if other people could be avoided, the darkness could hide the blood. Then the killer would have to sneak back into the house undetected. And it would play havoc with his wake-sleep schedule.

To me, killing after work makes the most sense, but that's the only timing that the Lechmerians don't have Him using.

Before work - Nichols, possibly Chapman
During work - Pinchon Street, Probably Chapman
Middle of the night - Tabram, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly.

There is no timing pattern if Lechmere is the killer. He never uses the simplest, safest time period. He repeatedly takes unnecessary risks by seeking out instead of avoiding possible witnesses.

their theory doesn't make any sense.

[Fiver]

If you'd like to re-write that without the straw-manning and the word-salad, it might be worth responding to. As it is, it doesn't even make proper sense.

M.

Are you sure you responded to the right post? PI's post was concise, easy to understand, and did not state anyone else's position, let alone misrepresent it.

Or do you have some very nonstandard definitions of "word salad" and "straw-manning".

[FrankO]

I am perfectly fine to disagree about this. I would not change a syllable in my take.

I would have been a little disappointed if you would have, I must say, Christer.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi PI,

I find your post perfectly clear. I don't know what part Mark is having trouble understanding. I'm also trying to figure out what part of it he considers a straw man. My best guess is that he thinks the "stalking prostitutes" part is a straw man, that his view is that Lechmerians don't think that Lechmere stalked prostitutes.

That was my best guess too, Lewis.

As you say, the Lechmerians seem to deny that the murderer stalked prostitutes and claim instead that he just happened upon them.

I think it has always been generally accepted that some stalking must have been involved.

[Mark J D]

... The lechmerians seem to deny that the murderer stalked prostitutes and claim instead that he just happened upon them.

I think it has always been generally accepted that some stalking must have been involved.

lol.

M.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi, Christer. Something that has often crossed my mind is the way a clinically narcissistic personality -- hyper-aware of increasing age, and obsessed by the unrealistic idea that he matters, dammit! -- would react to something like an endlessly lengthening walk to work in the wee hours. Maryann Street to Haydon Square: 650m. James Street to Haydon Square: 810m. James Street to Broad Street: 1.6km. Doveton Street to Broad Street: 2.1km. Doveton Street to Poplar High Street: 3.2km. For someone in the grip of, inter alia, narcissistic personality disorder, this is a progression in absolutely the wrong direction. (You will be aware of the speculative elements in the preceding.) We may even hypothesise that the mid-1888 move out to Doveton Street -- an astonishing development, on the face of it! -- was forced on him for some reason, making it even more of a triggering experience for someone with serious personality disorders of the type we imagine.

Bests,

Mark D.

I really do think that I’ve heard it all now. Cross was triggered into becoming a serial killer due to an excessively lengthy walk to work!! (One for Fiver to add to the list) Will this utter insanity ever end? What next? And I love the way you skilfully diagnose Cross as clinically narcissistic. Quite an achievement with a man that died over 100 years ago and for whom we have not a shred of a hint of his mental well-being or character.

Anyone would think that Cross was a remotely believable suspect and not just a witness for whom there isn’t a scintilla of evidence to justify any suspicion.

[Lewis C]

I really do think that I’ve heard it all now. Cross was triggered into becoming a serial killer due to an excessively lengthy walk to work!! (One for Fiver to add to the list) Will this utter insanity ever end? What next? And I love the way you skilfully diagnose Cross as clinically narcissistic. Quite an achievement with a man that died over 100 years ago and for whom we have not a shred of a hint of his mental well-being or character.

Anyone would think that Cross was a remotely believable suspect and not just a witness for whom there isn’t a scintilla of evidence to justify any suspicion.

Yes Herlock, and then it was necessary to hypothesize that the move to Doveton Street was forced on him, because one would think that if walking a longer distance was so traumatic for him, he wouldn't have made the move if he had a choice. But then he moved even further away to Poplar High Street.