Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Fiver]

To Frank, You think I didn't answer your question but I did, according to Lechmere and Paul's timings there is a gap, but you don't have to believe it, and no conviction can be built upon it, equally you cannot throw this remark out of the window either, this is a concept that supports their theory, and it is a fair one at that, I'll give them that.

There is only a gap if you:
* Assume Paul and Lechmere gave precise times.
* Assume they had precisely synchronized timepieces.
* Assume they were able to precisely estimate how much time had passed since they last saw a timepiece.

[drstrange169]

"When I previously proposed this theory it was not well received."

Certainly wasn't well received by Ed and Christer when I proposed it!

My reasoning was, if Mrs Tabram was part of the sequence, the killer had no record of throat cutting. By coming back and cutting Mrs Nichols throat it gave them surety and/or pleasure, thus making it a desired part of future rituals.
It also neatly explains the conundrums around the "blood evidence".
It would have been easy to hide around the board school and watch both events and for anyone else approaching. Once Cross and Paul left and the deed done, there were multiple routes available to leave by.


"What has caused your subsequent discomfort with the theory?"

I'm much less inclined to include Mrs Tabram in the sequence.


"I've often wondered how the gate to Brown's stables was secured ..."

I think, if I remember rightly, the Green's son opened up for the police. Either way, it would have been part of Neil's job to know whether it was usually locked or not.

[The Baron]

There is only a gap if you:
* Assume Paul and Lechmere gave precise times.
* Assume they had precisely synchronized timepieces.
* Assume they were able to precisely estimate how much time had passed since they last saw a timepiece.

There is no gap or a bigger gap if you:
* Assume Paul and Lechmere didn't give precise times.
* Assume they didn't have precisely synchronized timepieces.
* Assume they were not able to precisely estimate how much time had passed since they last saw a timepiece.


The Baron

[FrankO]

Yes, I do remember, Frank. This thread, 'Missing Evidence,' prolly others too. Clacky tore it up limb by limb.

Thanks a bunch, Paddy - I'll have a look!

[Geddy2112]

The bet is on Geds! And I raise by adding a fish and chips from Ed's homeboys - Happy Days on Goulston.

Hehe... they got a good plug on the last but one episode. Fish n Chips in London... ewww. Be worse than the beer.

[FrankO]

If you follow the theory according to Holmgren. In the time it took Paul to get closer than the 40 yards enough to see Lechmere (10 seconds?) Lechmere the killer would have had to cease his goal of abdominal mutilations, pull down her skirts, cut her throat twice, wipe his knife, wipe his hands. Hide knife and bloody rag about his person, plot his bluff, step back to the middle of the road some 4 yards away and be calm and in total control to tell Paul all about it.. worse still tap him on the shoulder with the knowledge of not knowing if he would transfer wet blood to him.

I suggest that is not just highly improbable but rather neigh on impossible...

Hi Geddy,

I always look at it from a guilty Lechmere's point of view. He heard footsteps for the first time, stopped what he was doing to listen for them and assess the situation, then weighed his options, decided what to do, then arranged the body as he needed to, moved away from the body to take up his position in the middle of the road and wait for Paul to appear from the gloom. I'm surmizing that it took at least a couple of seconds before Paul would be discernable from his position. And that Lechmere thought that Paul couldn't see him as long as he couldn't see Paul.

lI think that all of this would have taken some 15 seconds at least. If Paul would have walked at a speed of 5.5 km/h or 3.4 miles/h, then he would have covered almost 23 metres or 25 yards. At a speed of 6 km/h or 3.7 miles/h, he would have covered 25 metres or 27.3 yards. So, if Lechmere's estimate of 30 to 40 (say, 35) yards was accurate, Paul would have been some 60 yards away from Lechmere when he first heard him. This is just to give some idea of the distances.

We have to surmize that in this situation (in which he stuck around), he must have believed Paul wouldn't see or hear him until he'd taken his position in the middle of the road. If that's true (and I think it has to be, or else, why do it?), then why not just walk away at a pace synchronized with Paul's? Why loose those 15 precious seconds? In 15 seconds he, too, would have covered some 25 yards and then he would have known Paul still hadn't reached the body yet. I'm surmizing that Lechmere would have had some idea of at which distance he & Paul would have been able to discern one another. Or else, again, why decide to arrange the body & wait for Paul to begin with?

Just like yourself, it doesn't convince me.

Cheers,
Frank

[rjpalmer]

Thanks a bunch, Paddy - I'll have a look!

I thought this comment by Rob Clack was interesting:

11-22-2014, 08:04 PM
The program made a big deal about Lechmere being interrupted by Paul at 3:46. So I don't think the Lechmere brigade will deny that if Paul hadn't come along Lechmere would still carry on with the mutilations. So do you seriously expect Lechmere to get to Broad Street for 4:00 a.m.?

No. Me neither it is too stupid. That's another nail in his coffin.

--

It does make one wonder, doesn't it, why a man who committed the torso murder of 1887 would burden himself with such time constraints?

If Lechmere, uninterrupted by Paul, spent a mere two minutes more loosening the stays and carving away and cleaning his hands on her skirts, etc., it would bring the time to 3:48.

He now has a mere 12 minutes to get to Broad Street under the wire, beads of sweat on his brow, hoping to hell his employer doesn't notice that his late employee walks through Buck's Row on his way to work.

There's a thread where David Orsam timed the walk from the murder site to Liverpool Street Station and it took him 13 1/2 minutes, but he was deliberately walking nearly as fast as he could, describing his pace as only slightly slower than an Olympic race walker.

That puts Lechmere 1 1/2 minutes late. Normal walking speed would leave him roughly 5 minutes late.

Such are the hazards of killing and mutilating people on one's way to work, I suppose. It leads to fines for tardiness and undue stress.

[Fiver]

"When I previously proposed this theory it was not well received."

Certainly wasn't well received by Ed and Christer when I proposed it!

My reasoning was, if Mrs Tabram was part of the sequence, the killer had no record of throat cutting. By coming back and cutting Mrs Nichols throat it gave them surety and/or pleasure, thus making it a desired part of future rituals.
It also neatly explains the conundrums around the "blood evidence".
It would have been easy to hide around the board school and watch both events and for anyone else approaching. Once Cross and Paul left and the deed done, there were multiple routes available to leave by.


"What has caused your subsequent discomfort with the theory?"

I'm much less inclined to include Mrs Tabram in the sequence.


"I've often wondered how the gate to Brown's stables was secured ..."

I think, if I remember rightly, the Green's son opened up for the police. Either way, it would have been part of Neil's job to know whether it was usually locked or not.

For me, the chief obstacle to this theory is that I don't think it would be easy to hide nearby, then come back and slit Nichols' throat. Paul and Lechmere would have left Bucks Row very shortly before PC Neil entered. I doubt there would have been time to duck back into Bucks Row after the two carmen left, cut Nichols' throatt, and left again before PC Neil could have spotted the killer.

I do think Tabram is a likely Ripper victim based on body posing and overkill. And while her throat was not cut, it was stabbed nine times. While this could be an unrelated murder, I think it more likely she was an early Ripper victim with the killer's signature still evolving.

[Geddy2112]

It does make one wonder, doesn't it, why a man who committed the torso murder of 1887 would burden himself with such time constraints?

It makes me wonder why someone would commit a 'torso' killing in 1887 then change to ripping open abdomens to obtain organs (nearly getting caught twice) would then go back to torso killing. Where does Holmgren's 'evidence' he fantasised about the Venus 'sculpture' fall in with chopping heads and limbs off? You literally can't make it up but he has tried, oh my God he has tried.

[Mark J D]

It makes me wonder why someone would commit a 'torso' killing in 1887 then change to ripping open abdomens to obtain organs (nearly getting caught twice) would then go back to torso killing. Where does Holmgren's 'evidence' he fantasised about the Venus 'sculpture' fall in with chopping heads and limbs off?

Personally, I don't see the above as constituting any kind of conundrum.

M.

[drstrange169]

"I doubt there would have been time to duck back into Bucks Row after the two carmen left, cut Nichols' throatt, and left again before PC Neil could have spotted the killer."

The board school was the perfect spot to view proceedings whilst being unseen. To cut a throat takes a couple of seconds, leaving the scene via, Woods, Wintrop or Brady would be unseen by Neil.

I'm not claiming that's what happened, I'm saying I've tested it and it is all theoretically possible.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought this comment by Rob Clack was interesting:

11-22-2014, 08:04 PM
The program made a big deal about Lechmere being interrupted by Paul at 3:46. So I don't think the Lechmere brigade will deny that if Paul hadn't come along Lechmere would still carry on with the mutilations. So do you seriously expect Lechmere to get to Broad Street for 4:00 a.m.?

No. Me neither it is too stupid. That's another nail in his coffin.

--

It does make one wonder, doesn't it, why a man who committed the torso murder of 1887 would burden himself with such time constraints?

If Lechmere, uninterrupted by Paul, spent a mere two minutes more loosening the stays and carving away and cleaning his hands on her skirts, etc., it would bring the time to 3:48.

He now has a mere 12 minutes to get to Broad Street under the wire, beads of sweat on his brow, hoping to hell his employer doesn't notice that his late employee walks through Buck's Row on his way to work.

There's a thread where David Orsam timed the walk from the murder site to Liverpool Street Station and it took him 13 1/2 minutes, but he was deliberately walking nearly as fast as he could, describing his pace as only slightly slower than an Olympic race walker.

That puts Lechmere 1 1/2 minutes late. Normal walking speed would leave him roughly 5 minutes late.

Such are the hazards of killing and mutilating people on one's way to work, I suppose. It leads to fines for tardiness and undue stress.

It’s a rather glaring bit of cherrypicking isn’t it Roger? Cross supporters are only too keen to accept Paul’s alleged 3.45 arrival even though it contradicts the three Constable’s and yet they aren’t prepared to accept this from the very same article:

“I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not.”

Not according to Christer and the Mizen Scam he didn’t. According to that Cross sneakily spoke to Mizen alone and out of Paul’s hearing.

So he was telling the truth about the time (and had a watch on him to confirm this?) but he lied about talking to Mizen.

When estimating the time that the body was found we have two choices. Robert Paul’s 3.45. Or we go by the three Constable’s who quoted 3.45 and Paul who said that it took no more than 4 minutes to find Mizen. Cross supporters unsurprisingly go for Paul’s random 3.45 and dismiss the three Constable’s on timed beats. Baxter clearly didn’t go for Paul’s timer cause he used the phrase: “so many independent data.” Paul alone isn’t “so many.” Baxter undoubtedly believed that the body was discovered at around 3.40/3.41.

I really don’t know why this is ever disputed. (That’s not true…of course I know)

[The Baron]

my contention is that there is possibly a connection between the ripper and 25 Hanbury street. What seems to be over looked to me is that the murder of Annie Chapman was different. Nichols, stride, eddowes were all murdered in public space. Kelly was murdered in her bed. But it seems to me that the location of the chapman murder is significant. It isn't in public space. It isn't in a yard reached via a passage. Its the private back yard to a house in multiple occupation. To access the yard the killer and victim actually had to walk through the house with the risk of being challenged going in or out. My theory is that the killer knew the house and had been there before. There surely has to be some relationship between the killer and 25 hanbury street in order for him to be comfortable in that situation?

Is there any connection between Lechmere and 25 hanbury street.

I think that cat meat was sold from the ground floor of no25. If Lechmere was delivering meat that could be a link.

Great post! a Jewel in its own!

Yep, Lechmere must have been familiar with the place if he delivered cat meats there often, something way in favour of Lechmere compared to other suspects.



The Baron

[FrankO]

I thought this comment by Rob Clack was interesting:

11-22-2014, 08:04 PM
The program made a big deal about Lechmere being interrupted by Paul at 3:46. So I don't think the Lechmere brigade will deny that if Paul hadn't come along Lechmere would still carry on with the mutilations. So do you seriously expect Lechmere to get to Broad Street for 4:00 a.m.?

No. Me neither it is too stupid. That's another nail in his coffin.

--

It does make one wonder, doesn't it, why a man who committed the torso murder of 1887 would burden himself with such time constraints?

If Lechmere, uninterrupted by Paul, spent a mere two minutes more loosening the stays and carving away and cleaning his hands on her skirts, etc., it would bring the time to 3:48.

He now has a mere 12 minutes to get to Broad Street under the wire, beads of sweat on his brow, hoping to hell his employer doesn't notice that his late employee walks through Buck's Row on his way to work.

There's a thread where David Orsam timed the walk from the murder site to Liverpool Street Station and it took him 13 1/2 minutes, but he was deliberately walking nearly as fast as he could, describing his pace as only slightly slower than an Olympic race walker.

That puts Lechmere 1 1/2 minutes late. Normal walking speed would leave him roughly 5 minutes late.

Such are the hazards of killing and mutilating people on one's way to work, I suppose. It leads to fines for tardiness and undue stress.

Hi Roger,

Thanks for sharing Rob’s quote. I did a similar exercise in August of 2021, based on Lechmere arriving at 4 o’clock at work, just as he’d stated (as opposed to the ‘about 3:30’ he used for leaving his home) and using the distance from where the carrmen met Mizen to 3 possible entrances at Broad Street Station: one in Worship Street, 1280 metres from the meeting point; one in Finsbury Avenue, 1460 metres from the meeting point and the one in Eldon Street, 1750 metres from the meeting point.

The results, using different walking speeds, with the Worship Street entrance were that the meeting with Mizen took place between 3:44:58 and 3:46:54 and Lechmere’s leaving home between 3:33:31 and 3:35:54.

The results with the Finsbury Avenue entrance were that the meeting with Mizen took place between 3:42:54 and 3:45:08 and Lechmere’s leaving home between 3:31:31 and 3:34:09.

The results with the Eldon Street entrance were that the meeting with Mizen took place between 3:39:35 and 3:42:15 and Lechmere’s leaving home between 3:28:09 and 3:32:16.

Furthermore, if we’d go by Christer’s stance that the carmen left the crime scene at around 3:47, then Lechmere would have arrived at work between 4:03 (Worship Street) and 4:11 (Eldon Street).

Of course, the objective of this exercise wasn’t to give precise timings, but rather to see where Lechmere arriving at work at 4 o’clock would lead us and where Christer’s supposition of the carmen leaving the crime spot around 3:47 would take us in that respect.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Neil heard Thain in Brady St, so why wouldn't Cross have heard Paul shortly after he entered Bucks Row, if Cross was stationary? Cross would have only had to move a few steps into the middle of the street - not difficult to do silently if that was the purpose.

Hi George,

If that would have been the purpose, then, yes, of course he would have had plenty of time to do all he thought he needed to do and do it silently. And he would have known he would have enough time to do it, because he knew how much time it took, approximately, to arrive from Brady Street to the crime spot.

That's not whanot'd argue against. I'd argue against the idea that, with enough time on his hands to even just walk away and cover the 100 yards or so that it would have taken Paul to arrive at the crime scene, he decided tostay put instead. My stance is that serial killers only stay put and play a game when they feel forced to, not when they also have the opportunity to get away. But that's just my stance.

Cheers,
Frank