Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Sally]

What about Paul saying he spoke to Mizen, who's version does that support Mizen or Cross?

Ah, but Paul was intimidated by Crossmere - surely that's self-evident from his testimony? Therefore, as a logical - we could even say watertight - conclusion; we cannot rely on anything that Paul said.

In no way, for example, should that be taken to corroborate anything claimed by Crossmere.

[Robert]

Fish, you keep on about Mizen's record. Well, the records tell us that Crossmere was a good man, if we can count as being a good man successfully raising 11 or 12 children, sticking with his wife, having an apparently continuous employment record and having no criminal record that anyone has been able to discover.

[Kaz]

I'd like to know what was this supposed 'trauma' two months before the killings started was. He moved away but no mention of where and why?

[Ben]

When Cross said he never mentioned a policeman to Mizen at the inquest, Mizen had already given his evidence and had left the witness box, if not the court room, so there was no opportunity for the jury to ask Mizen about it. Nor was there any opportunity for Mizen to challenge Cross's denial.

Ever?

Even if Mizen missed the opportunity to notice the blatant contradiction at the inquest, it would certainly have come to light once the inquest reports were published, which they were extensively, and if Mizen was certain about his version of events, he would have known at that point that Cross had lied to him - which would have led inevitable to an investigation into Cross as a suspect. The fact that this didn't happen is a more or less certain indication that Mizen accepted his confusion, and that Cross never said anything about an actual PC being present at the body.

...as accepted by the vast, overwhelming majority of observers.

[Djb]

According to the route finder on my computer it tkes 12 minutes to walk from doveton street to the murder scene.
If so lechmere arrives at 3.42 not 3.37.

[David Andersen]

Simon!

I would like to ask you to look at the three lies that Lechmere seemingly served in his testimony. It is not just the extra PC that we can look at!

1. The extra PC.
2. The severity - while Lechmere says that he and Paul told Mizen that the woman was quite probably dead, Mizen says that he was only told that there was a woman lying flat on her back in Buckīs Row - a woman who was already tended to by another PC:
3. Who did the talking - while Lechmere says that he and Paul both spoke to Mizen, the latter makes it very clear that just the onee man approached him and spoke: Lechmere.

Look at lie number three! Who stood to gain from that one?

All the best,
Fisherman

With regards lie number three..So Lechmere didnt speak to Mizen, Who then allegedly told Mizen he was wanted by another PC?

[Damaso Marte]

Do you believe that Nichols was picked up or ambushed in Buck's Row? You basically have to, for the timing to work out, no?

[GUT]

Considering that as I understand the case against Cross one issue is that Mizen had left the inquest before Cross appeared and thus could not contradict what Cross said.

Then Mizen says only one carman spoke to him.

Paul says he spoke to Mizen.

How do we know that Mizen didn't have the two mixed up?

Just wondering aloud!

[drstrange169]

Remember, "Cross" was brought in for Mizen to i.d.


On second thoughts, it being dark, the two dressed similarly and the fact Mizen was busy "knocking up", he could have been mistaken.

[Fisherman]

Fish, you keep on about Mizen's record. Well, the records tell us that Crossmere was a good man, if we can count as being a good man successfully raising 11 or 12 children, sticking with his wife, having an apparently continuous employment record and having no criminal record that anyone has been able to discover.

We donīt have any written evaluation grading Lechmere, Iīm afraid. John Eric Armstrong stuck with his wife, raised his children admirably, his family was appreciated by friends and neighbours and he was a military man with a good service record.
Oh, I forgot: He was also a serial killer.

For all we know, Mizen may also have been a serial killer. What if he was the Torso guy? He had the approximate right age, I think.

Life is a bit more complex than you seem to think, Robert. To begin with, you must accept that one of the aims of all serial killers will be to evade capture. To that end, they will have a facade under which they are working, so as to remain undetected. The exact same thing could well have been the case for Lechmere.

You word yourself that I "keep on" about Mizenīs record. Apparently, you dislike that I mention it in the context, you wish that I would not, and you try to present a family background as an equally good "record".

Iīm afraid you may have to endure Mizenīs record fortwith too. There have been years and years when it has been suggested that he was a complete nitwit and a very bad police. That has been speculated in order to dissolve the viability of a suggestion that Lechmere could have lied to him in the killerīs capacity.

Now we know that Mizen was anything but a bad policeman. He was held high in esteem and if anything, he was an exemplary PC.

If you think that such a thing will not alter the way we must look upon the Mizen scam, then itīs rethinking time.

Once again, why do people use Longs dismissal for reasons of drunkenness to bolster their take that he was wrong on the apron, if they are not going to accept Mizenīs record as bolstering for him having been the most likely man NOT to have lied - especially when all his actions after the scam corroborate it?

That is a much more important question to answer than why I speak of Mizens record. That should be pretty obvious.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

According to the route finder on my computer it tkes 12 minutes to walk from doveton street to the murder scene.
If so lechmere arrives at 3.42 not 3.37.

We WALKED the stretch, DJB. We timed it, clock in hand. We did not walk very fast.
Edward has walked the same stretch numerous times, clocking it. Many other people, like for example Michael Connor, have timed it.

It always ends up around six or seven minutes.

Iīm afraid your computer will have to give way for reality on this!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

With regards lie number three..So Lechmere didnt speak to Mizen, Who then allegedly told Mizen he was wanted by another PC?

You have misread me, I believe. Lechmere, and nobody else, told Mizen about the ghost PC.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Do you believe that Nichols was picked up or ambushed in Buck's Row? You basically have to, for the timing to work out, no?

No. Nine minutes - and keep in mind that this is not any proven time! - would have been quite enough to walk Brady Street down, pick Nichols up in Whitechapel Road, get her to Buckīs Row and kill her. The distances are small ones, it is around 100 yards or so from the corner Brady Street/Buckīs Row down to Whitechapel Road, so that extra trek would have been covered in a minute. Add another minute to go back, and you still have seven minutes to spend.

And, once again - we do not know the exact time at which he left. But what we have is what we must work with, and as he said 3.30 or 3.20, we have either 9 or 19 minutes surplus time to deal with.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Considering that as I understand the case against Cross one issue is that Mizen had left the inquest before Cross appeared and thus could not contradict what Cross said.

Then Mizen says only one carman spoke to him.

Paul says he spoke to Mizen.

How do we know that Mizen didn't have the two mixed up?

Just wondering aloud!

As pointed out, Lechmere was brought in and identified by Mizen. We also have the Echo, in which it says:

Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman.

Since this depicts the initial stages of Mizenīs testimony, it seems that it had been established before Mizen took the stand who had spoken to him.

Since none of the officials would have known whether just the one or both carmen had spoken to Mizen, the latter could thus not have been informed about the identity of the man who spoke to him by any official. He will arguably have met with Lechmere again outside the inquest room, and so he was able to nail him as the man who spoke to him on the night.

The assertions that Lechmere and Paul were interchangable and dressed similarly and so on should not be taken too seriously, nor should the suggestion of Mizen mixing them up. Mizen identified Lechmere as the man who spoke to him, and we must therefore accept that this was what happened.

Otherwise, we will look desperate, wonīt we?

Fisherman
amused

[GUT]

As pointed out, Lechmere was brought in and identified by Mizen. We also have the Echo, in which it says:

Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman.

Since this depicts the initial stages of Mizenīs testimony, it seems that it had been established before Mizen took the stand who had spoken to him.

Since none of the officials would have known whether just the one or both carmen had spoken to Mizen, the latter could thus not have been informed about the identity of the man who spoke to him by any official. He will arguably have met with Lechmere again outside the inquest room, and so he was able to nail him as the man who spoke to him on the night.

The assertions that Lechmere and Paul were interchangable and dressed similarly and so on should not be taken too seriously, nor should the suggestion of Mizen mixing them up. Mizen identified Lechmere as the man who spoke to him, and we must therefore accept that this was what happened.

Otherwise, we will look desperate, wonīt we?

Fisherman
amused

Thank you, I couldn't find any reference to them meeting so it comes down to either Paul and Cross were telling fibs, or Mizen was.