Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Kattrup]

The earliest indication of Lechmere being linked to the butchery trade stems from how the Broad Street depot was very much about delivering meat. After that, the 1891 matter is the first safe recording as far as I know. We know, however, that the Lechmere family was deeply involved within the horse flesh business, although we donīt know where it begins. I am speculating that Charles Lechmere was possibly participating in it early on, and if he was always linked to the Broad Street depot from itīs opening back in 1868, we seemingly have some sort of a meat industry connection right there, although to what exact degree, we cannot tell.

As for the research on the desensitizing effects of the meat and butchery trade, this passage points to it:

Amy Fitzgerald, a criminology professor at the University of Windsor in Canada, has found a strong correlation between the presence of a large slaughterhouse and high crime rates in U.S. communities. One might object that a slaughterhouse town’s disproportionate population of poor, working-class males might be the real cause, but Fitzgerald controlled for that possibility by comparing her data to counties with comparable populations employed in factory-like operations. In her study released in 2007, the abattoir stood out as the factor most likely to spike crime statistics. Slaughterhouse workers, in essence, were “desensitized,” and their behavior outside of work reflected it.

It stems from the link https://greenstarsproject.org/2020/0...nditions-ptsd/

I remember that there are other scientists who reached found similar results, but I cannot remember their names. I hope the example I provide will suffice for you.

PS. Just noticed that this passage followed on the earlier one:

A 2016 paper by psychology researchers at the University of South Africa looks at the psycho-social consequences of becoming a slaughterer. It reports on worker interviews, covering topics from the trauma of their first kill to recurring nightmares and feelings of shame, fear, emotional detachment, socially rejection, and violence.

The risk potential of employees suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome was evident throughout the stages of being a slaughterfloor employee.

A 2009 paper used rigorous statistical methods to look at the impact of slaughterhouses and local crime rates. The authors, from Michigan State University, reference Upton Sinclair’s 1906 novel, The Jungle (which shone a light on the meat industry) and point out that almost no empirical investigations had been carried out to test the link between slaughterhouses and crime until now, 100 years later. Their conclusion:

The findings indicate that slaughterhouse employment increases total arrest rates, arrests for violent crimes, arrests for rape, and arrests for other sex offenses in comparison with other industries.

Here’s how the Yale Global Health Review explains the kind of PTSD that slaughterhouse workers suffer from:

A type of post-traumatic stress disorder called perpetration-induced traumatic stress (PITS). Unlike many forms of traumatic stress disorders in which sufferers have been victims in a traumatic situation, sufferers of PITS are the “causal participant” in a traumatic situation. In other words, they are the direct reason for another being’s trauma. Living with the knowledge of their actions causes symptoms similar to those of individuals who are recipients of trauma: substance abuse, anxiety issues, depression, and dissociation from reality.

So, there we are. It is an rather an extensive field of research, it would seem.

Thank you.

The first article is about crime rates rising in rural areas when modern, late 20th century industrial abattoirs are established.

The second one is about early 21st century South African slaughterhouse workers and their experiences working there. It's the article of the three that most supports your contention that butchery business is desentisizing.

The third one is the same as the first.

The fourth one is akin to an opinion piece, using the first article as basis for suggesting that slaughterhouse workers might be more exposed to ptsd-like problems.
It's not peer-reviewed and the author is a college junior.

So, there we are. It is an rather an extensive field of research, it would seem.

From article 2:
Research focusing on the well-being of slaughterhouse employees is scarce and in the South African context almost non-existing.
from article 3
studies of this psychological phenomenon have largely ignored the slaughterhouse worker community,


Yes, extensive, it seems.

[Kattrup]

I think one has to read the scientific material to find out

I think one should read the scientific material before one attempts to use it to bolster one's theory.

Our results cannot be generalized to counties in states without right-to-work laws and to
counties in or adjacent to metropolitan areas.

Due to the small contextual sample applied in this hermeneutic phenomenological study, the results cannot be generalised to the meat-processing industry as a whole.

It's supremely difficult to understand why these theories of late 20th/early 21st century industrial slaughterhouse workers could be thought as relevant to a theory regarding a 19th century man man who did not even work as a butcher and only tangentially and theoretically has a connection to the meat industry.

[Abby Normal]

I think one should read the scientific material before one attempts to use it to bolster one's theory.







It's supremely difficult to understand why these theories of late 20th/early 21st century industrial slaughterhouse workers could be thought as relevant to a theory regarding a 19th century man man who did not even work as a butcher and only tangentially and theoretically has a connection to the meat industry.

hi kat
im just wondering does one just jump into a cats meat business? wouldnt ma lech and or family been involved somehow before?
and btw we dont know that lech "only tangentially... etc" . as far as we know, he could have been around it his whole life, no? you stated that as a fact is all im saying.

i find it highly interesting that ma lech had a cats meat business. would be a perfect chop shop bolt hole for a serial killer.

[MrBarnett]

hi kat
im just wondering does one just jump into a cats meat business? wouldnt ma lech and or family been involved somehow before?
and btw we dont know that lech "only tangentially... etc" . as far as we know, he could have been around it his whole life, no? you stated that as a fact is all im saying.

i find it highly interesting that ma lech had a cats meat business. would be a perfect chop shop bolt hole for a serial killer.

Having a son who carted cats meat for the largest processer of horseflesh in the country (the world it was claimed) might have been useful.

[Fisherman]

Indeed, Fisherman.

I believe you have interviewed / chatted with descendent(s) of Charles Lechmere, at least Susan Lechmere. Were there no stories of the man who found the first Ripper victim circulating in the family?

That is mainly Edward Stows department, although yes, I have met Susan Lechmere and spoken to her - which was genuinely nice, by the way! As for what the relatives had to say, one interesting part was that none of them had any knowledge at all of the name Cross ever having been used by family members. When it comes to recollections of the carman himself, he is seemingly too many generations removed from today to have left a mark.
There was some story told after the relatives had been informed about the possibility that Lechmere had been Jack the Ripper, but this material had too much of "Aha, now that you mention it, I seem to remember..." over it to feel reliable, not least since the informatn in question had already professed to having had no such knowledge. If there was something else, painting a picture of Lechmere, then I have not been informed about it. As I said, Edward Stow is the one person with the really intimate knowledge.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish,

I too often ponder that incident.

If the Charles Cross who was involved in the child's death was the same Charles Cross who worked at Broad Street, what might he have been doing up in Islington?

The incident occurred a few streets away from the area known as ‘Belle Isle’, an area described by Charles Booth as ‘the chief seat of the London Horse slaughterers’. It would eventually be the location of Harrison, Barber’s head office, but in 1876, it was where John Harrison ran his business.

Such was the close connection between Harrison, Barber and Pickfords, that when HB was created in 1886, Pickfords’ Horse Manager, William McCulloch, was on the HB board of directors. HB had the contract to dispose of Pickfords’ superfluous horses.

Also, HB received boiled horseflesh from provincial knacker’s via Broad Street, where Pickfords were the designated agent of the LNWR.

And to cap it all, Charles Lechmere’s son, while working as a cats meat salesman/carter, was living in tiny Winthrop Street a couple of doors from HB’s knackers yard.

When I consider all of that, I find it suggestive of a connection between the Lechmeres and HB.

Gary

It certainly cannot be excluded. And it would dovetail nicely with the Lechmeres being involved with the business very early on. Letīs hope something surfaces to enlighten us further; the idea that it is too far removed in time didnīt count on you finding the incident in the first place, so I am hopeful that there is more lying around.

[Fisherman]

Thank you.

The first article is about crime rates rising in rural areas when modern, late 20th century industrial abattoirs are established.

The second one is about early 21st century South African slaughterhouse workers and their experiences working there. It's the article of the three that most supports your contention that butchery business is desentisizing.

The third one is the same as the first.

The fourth one is akin to an opinion piece, using the first article as basis for suggesting that slaughterhouse workers might be more exposed to ptsd-like problems.
It's not peer-reviewed and the author is a college junior.




From article 2:
Research focusing on the well-being of slaughterhouse employees is scarce and in the South African context almost non-existing.
from article 3
studies of this psychological phenomenon have largely ignored the slaughterhouse worker community,


Yes, extensive, it seems.

As I said, I remember seeing more material of the same type, speaking about the meat and butcher trade as desensitizing. I find it a bit sad when you are implying that there is n ot much of a basis for it. Of course, if one paper draws on another, it detracts from the matter to a degree, then again, when a paper draws on another paper, it is the quality of the paper drawn upon that establishes the value of a thesis.
And it seems to me that we are on pretty solid ground here.

[Fisherman]

I think one should read the scientific material before one attempts to use it to bolster one's theory.

That is why I recommended that this was done, actually.

It's supremely difficult to understand why these theories of late 20th/early 21st century industrial slaughterhouse workers could be thought as relevant to a theory regarding a 19th century man man who did not even work as a butcher and only tangentially and theoretically has a connection to the meat industry.

I find it a lot more difficult to understand how somebody with any level of understanding of these matters would care to raise a point like that. I have - VERY clearly - said that we are not sure of Maria Louisas connection to the trade until 1891, and that the major family connection to the business is not proven until at a later stage.

I have never said that the theories I point to are applicable to a 19:th century man.

However! There are NO scientific papers studying the relation between criminality and the meat and butchery business from Victorian days, and so if we want to look at that link, why would we not turn to what material there is? And with all respect, what is it in the trade that you suspect may have changed from a heartwarming and humanizing environment in the Victorian abattoirs into the alienating and cold slaughterhouses of modern days?

I find your objections ill founded and, quite frankly, more than a tad dumb. And the sad thing about that is that it does not surprise me much. You can do better, I know that. So why donīt you?

Do you remember the days when you said that you tried to stay away from the Lechmere threads? Those days are long gone, are they not? Now, you canīt help yourself, it seems. And that is where you go badly wrong, if I am not much mistaken.

[caz]

I noticed a weak tone and fearness in your voice Caz, A remarkable regression from the die heart Diary defender Caz we all knew, how are you going to handle these remaining endless-looking hours of waiting and expectations before the fall of your legend?


Do you think you are the center of the universe?! and every Diary related research has to be connecting to you and your beliefs, let those remaining 2 or 3 persons who still think the Diary is genuine have something new to ponder, maybe the day is coming and we will all celebrate an earth empty of scrapbook-infected human.


The Baron

Off topic now I think, David B. This is a Lechmere thread.

In any case, my post was directed to Fisherman, to warn him not to waste his time arguing with your funny little alter ego, which has no business being on these boards at all.

I couldn't be the centre of the universe, could I, while you already occupy that lofty position.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I am sorry to say that after living in my current house for nearly 20 years, I would not even recognise my neighbours from 2 doors down or further away and yet I'm sure I will have passed them many times on the way to the tube or local shops.

Ditto, etenguy.

I live in a corner house on a busy crossroads in East Devon, with just one immediate neighbour. There are houses in all other directions, but when we were clapping the NHS each Thursday evening at eight in our front garden, I didn't recognise any of the people who emerged to join in the applause. Just the lovely lady next door.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Do you remember the days when you said that you tried to stay away from the Lechmere threads? Those days are long gone, are they not? Now, you canīt help yourself, it seems. And that is where you go badly wrong, if I am not much mistaken.

This is just too funny, Fishy. You addressed it to Kattrup, who also tried to stay away from the Maybrick threads, claiming a lack of interest in the subject matter and no interest in learning more about it. Yet recently Kattnip has been all over Diary World like a rash, seeking information from the wrong people despite repeatedly being given directions to the right one.

What the devil is occurring?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

This is just too funny, Fishy. You addressed it to Kattrup, who also tried to stay away from the Maybrick threads, claiming a lack of interest in the subject matter and no interest in learning more about it. Yet recently Kattnip has been all over Diary World like a rash, seeking information from the wrong people despite repeatedly being given directions to the right one.

What the devil is occurring?

Love,

Caz
X

Maybe itīs just a case of not trying hard enough, Caz...? Or two?

[caz]

I don't know, Fisherman, but I'm jolly glad I'm not eligible to join the latest incarnation of the Hellfire Club.

I can't tell if the number of recruits is growing or we have multiple personalities among us.

Love,

Caz
X

[etenguy]

That is mainly Edward Stows department, although yes, I have met Susan Lechmere and spoken to her - which was genuinely nice, by the way! As for what the relatives had to say, one interesting part was that none of them had any knowledge at all of the name Cross ever having been used by family members. When it comes to recollections of the carman himself, he is seemingly too many generations removed from today to have left a mark.
There was some story told after the relatives had been informed about the possibility that Lechmere had been Jack the Ripper, but this material had too much of "Aha, now that you mention it, I seem to remember..." over it to feel reliable, not least since the informatn in question had already professed to having had no such knowledge. If there was something else, painting a picture of Lechmere, then I have not been informed about it. As I said, Edward Stow is the one person with the really intimate knowledge.

Glad you had a good experience with the family. Shame it was not more fruitful.

I'm surprised that there was no family hand me down stories about the man who found the first ripper victim. In my family we have stories about some of the more colourful ancestors from Victorian times. My great, great grandfather in particular - and the story seemed to survive largely intact and accurate, as we recently found a press report about one of his escapades that tied up nicely.

[Fisherman]

Glad you had a good experience with the family. Shame it was not more fruitful.

I'm surprised that there was no family hand me down stories about the man who found the first ripper victim. In my family we have stories about some of the more colourful ancestors from Victorian times. My great, great grandfather in particular - and the story seemed to survive largely intact and accurate, as we recently found a press report about one of his escapades that tied up nicely.

I agree that people tend to tell stories about matters that are larger than life, so to speak. Whenever a family member is involved in something such, it tends to become great stories, sometimes more great than truthful in the long run. Of course, if Lechmere never informed his relatives that he was the finder of Nichols, then it would not get incoroporated in the family lore. In the context, it is interesting that the carman showed up at the inquest in his working clothes - perhaps on account of not having told his wife where he was going that day...?
Good to hear about your family lore - sounds like a treat!