Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Dane_F]

Hi Abby,

Modus Operandi
a method of procedure; especially a distinct pattern or method of operation that indicates or suggests the work of a single criminal in more than one crime

JTR MO was to mutilate prostitutes, torso killer's was to dismember. I'm pretty sure I used it correctly.

Signature is a certain aspect of a crime that the criminal does that ties the crimes together. JTR took organs, torso killer planted body parts.


Columbo

Organs were missing from some of the torsos too.

I'm curious, do you consider MJK as a Ripper victim?

[Elamarna]

All Jerry did was post quotes from sources at the time. He made no judgements on either side and your response only shows you have already made up your mind by going in my view to ridiculous extremes in detail to question their similarity. As I said before the flaps probably don't have the same amount of molecules so they're not similar?

Sorry for the hyperbole but that's what your view looks like to me.

Abby

What Have I said wrong?

Given that Jerry's view on this issue, is no secret, he did not need to make any comments. And my reply was completely respectful.

The quotes were useful in that they allowed me to demonstrated the issues I have with the hypothesis, why is that a problem?

Unlike some on the site, I go to great lengths to say I may be incorrect, and others may be right, indeed I have said that several times in my last few posts.

Just for consistency I will say again, the flaps may be very similar, they may not.

We have insufficient data to compare the two sets of murders using the available medical data.

The use of the word "flap" in both sets of descriptions is not conclusive evidence; it is a pointer to a POSSIBLE similarity that is all and the starting point for discussion.


The questioning of the similarities is not ridiculous I do not believe they are as clear as some think.

From the quotes Jerry supplied the flaps in the case of Jackson appear to be different the flaps for Kelly and Chapman, even with the limited evidence. If you do not feel that possible difference is important, so be it.



You say I have already made my mind up, I have made it very clear tonight that I am undecided on the issue at present, but certainly do not believe the case has been made anything like conclusively at this point.

It seems however that you have certainly made your mind up, no problem.




best wishes





Steve

[Elamarna]

To Kat and el
I'm afraid you would deny you were standing in a forest because the trees are all different shapes.

At least on this issue.

Abby

I would probably say we were in mixed woodland, I am not denying anything.
can you not see that?

steve

[Columbo]

All very logical, Columbo - but always looking at the differences only. If we accept that they were not the same man, we must also accept that:

Two serial killers overlapped in London of 1888.

Not entirely impossible since there can be several at work at one time. Very difficult to disprove. Good point though.

Both men were evisceration killers, an extremely rare breed.

Very true.

Both men cut their victims open from sternum to pubes.

I will have to concede this since I don't have as in-depth a knowledge of the wounds in the Torso killings.

Both men took out organs, both of a sexual and of a non-sexual nature.

True but why? one took one for personal reasons, the other could've been necessity due to the mess of dismemberment.

Both men were incredibly skilled with the knife.

I'm not sure JTR was as skilled since even the doctors at the time said probably not, but the torso killer may have been. Incredibly skilled may be a little exaggerated.

Both men took away part of their victim´s colons in some instances.

I don't recall JTR taking colon. I'll look at that.

Both men cut away the abdominal walls of some of their victims.

Again by necessity to get to their objectives. May or may not mean anything.

Both men took rings from the fingers of victims.

We don't know Annie Chapman's rings were stolen by the killer. I don't think that's ever been proven. I don't know about the torso killer.

These things, we must look upon as purely coincidental, if we discard the idea that they were one and the same. Or we must regard them as copy-cat features, sometimes sold from the Ripper to the torso man, other times having travelled the other way.

I say that is so incredible as to be virtually impossible.

Is it virtually impossible that Lechmere had a bolthole where he could kill? He need not have owned it himself, it must not have cost him a penny.

Speculatively true.

Is it virtually impossible that he did not spend all his free hours with his family? My own grandfather had ten kids and a job, and he was rarely at home when free.

Not impossible at all But how many hours a day did he work? how many days a week did he work? Barring family, what time would he have to do a series of two different styles of murders?


Is it virtually impossible that he carted the bodies in his Pickfords cart, or that he had access to another cart?

Yes on the first part. I'm pretty sure the people packing and unpacking his Pickfords cart may have noticed something. Access to another cart is possible but speculation of course.

Was he pennyless? No, he left a substantial inheritance when he died, and he had had enough money to open a shop during life.

He left a substantial inheritance when he died but what was he worth at the time?

Which is the more improbable thing?

By default the most improbable thing is that he was the torso killer because no one has been tied to it. He's not tied to any murder really other than Nicols. It doesn't mean he wasn't both JTR and the Torso Killer, just most likely improbable.

Columbo

[Columbo]

I think his point was it is rare in the realm of serial killers. Not that it never happened.

Even if you rattle off a couple of dozen names this does not remove the unlikeliness of two serial killers in the same city around the same time with very similar signatures operating over a similar time period. Both of which would have had to taken parts of their signature from each other.

I am a logical person and I prefer the answer that logically makes the most sense. We could invent numerous excuses to explain away the similarities or we can simply accept that there is at least a chance these people were killed by the same hand. One answer requires simply accepting one truth. The other requires a whole slew of things to have to have been true.

My point in listing these killers to Fisherman is to point out it's not rare in the realm of serial killers. It may not happen in the same city as you pointed out but it's not as rare as you may believe. I wish it was. Not a fun thing to research.

Columbo

[Columbo]

Organs were missing from some of the torsos too.

I'm curious, do you consider MJK as a Ripper victim?

I do consider MJK a ripper victim. Obviously I can't prove it but I have seen no credible reason to discount her. Liz Stride on the other hand is another story.

Columbo

[Elamarna]

I was just about to make this same point. People trying to over complicate things to refuse accepting the obvious, that there were indeed similarities, seems silly to me.

The shape of the cuts seems largely irrelevant to me. Many of the Ripper victims had varying cuts to them as well. I'd argue anyone that includes MJK as a Ripper victim must also give credence to the possibility of the Torso murders also. MJK had just as many if not more similarities to the Jackson than other C5s.

Hi Dane_F

I fully accept that there is a chance that the same hand did both, indeed to deny the possibility would be to bury ones head in the sand.

I have not said there were not similarities, of course there were.

All i have been saying is that the reliance on reports which do not give full descriptions in all cases means that a conclusive answer is not possible at present.

steve

[Dane_F]

Hi Dane_F

I fully accept that there is a chance that the same hand did both, indeed to deny the possibility would be to bury ones head in the sand.

I have not said there were not similarities, of course there were.

All i have been saying is that the reliance on reports which do not give full descriptions in all cases means that a conclusive answer is not possible at present.

steve

To be fair the entire Ripper case doesn't have enough information to probably ever give a conclusive answer. That has not stopped tens of thousands of people from speculating. The only thing we can do is try and draw conclusions from the information we do have, otherwise, what's the point of any of this?

[Elamarna]

To be fair the entire Ripper case doesn't have enough information to probably ever give a conclusive answer. That has not stopped tens of thousands of people from speculating. The only thing we can do is try and draw conclusions from the information we do have, otherwise, what's the point of any of this?

hi

that is a very true and fair comment.


Steve

[Columbo]

Hi Dane_F

I fully accept that there is a chance that the same hand did both, indeed to deny the possibility would be to bury ones head in the sand.

I have not said there were not similarities, of course there were.

All i have been saying is that the reliance on reports which do not give full descriptions in all cases means that a conclusive answer is not possible at present.

steve

Nicely put.

columbo

[Dane_F]

I do consider MJK a ripper victim. Obviously I can't prove it but I have seen no credible reason to discount her. Liz Stride on the other hand is another story.

Columbo

I consider MJK a Ripper victim as well. Still, the similarities between MJK and Jackson do give pause for wonder.

If we are to believe there are two serial killers in the same city, around roughly the same time, doing somewhat similar things to victims. . .which group does MJK best fit in? Instead of two separate murderers I just tend to think it possible she might show the bridging of the gap between both type of victims from the same hand.

[Elamarna]

If I am correct in that reasoning, then the question becomes, why would an accidental death (abortion for example) become such a spectacle? Why would this person take the time to mutilate the corpse before dissecting it, if the sole purpose was for body disposal?

Jerry

very true, I think it is clear that Jackson at least, and probably all the torso victims were murdered.


Steve

[jerryd]

Jerry

very true, I think it is clear that Jackson at least, and probably all the torso victims were murdered.


Steve

Tell that to Trevor.

I wanted say, publicly, that I was not personally offended by your post. You and I have had a few discussions about this same topic in the past and we still stand on the same ground, so I knew where you were coming from.

[Columbo]

I was just about to make this same point. People trying to over complicate things to refuse accepting the obvious, that there were indeed similarities, seems silly to me.

The shape of the cuts seems largely irrelevant to me. Many of the Ripper victims had varying cuts to them as well. I'd argue anyone that includes MJK as a Ripper victim must also give credence to the possibility of the Torso murders also. MJK had just as many if not more similarities to the Jackson than other C5s.

I don't doubt the similarities between the two sets of murders, I just think it improbable they were done by the same person.

As Fisherman knows I respect him and the research he's done immensely, and he's got a better theory than most with Lechmere. Fortunately we can have a friendly disagreement without calling each other numpties. The Torso connection seems a little tenuous to me right now.

Columbo

[Columbo]

I consider MJK a Ripper victim as well. Still, the similarities between MJK and Jackson do give pause for wonder.

If we are to believe there are two serial killers in the same city, around roughly the same time, doing somewhat similar things to victims. . .which group does MJK best fit in? Instead of two separate murderers I just tend to think it possible she might show the bridging of the gap between both type of victims from the same hand.

Very possible I agree, I just don't have the confidence in saying conclusively that it's the same killer.

Columbo