Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Lechmere]

If he had assumed another name then I would expect him to be baptised under that other name - plenty of others did likewise.
Similarly for his sister at her death.
The birth certificate isn't really relevant for the daughter as that predated John Lechmere leaving the mother.
A for the son (Charles) I can't see the relevance either as Thomas Cross was unknown then.

Sorry, he was spotted close to the body by Paul - that was what Paul said.
He spotted him by the body before Lechmere came up to him.

What is being missed here (beam me up Scotty) is that when Charles Lechmere gave the name Cross he wasn't chatting to his muckers in the pub, he was giving evidence under oath.
The refusal to accept that there is something 'odd' in this sets certain 'Ripperologists' apart from the rest of society.

[MrBarnett]

Gut,

My wife used her stepfathers' surname until we married. I knew her dad was her stepfather, but I had no idea of her birth father's name until it came to filling out the marriage cert. She then mentioned to the registrar that her surname had not been 'officially' changed from that of her birth father. The registrar suggested that her birth fathers' name should be entered on the marriage cert, and on the few occasions since that she has been asked for her maiden name she has used his name rather than her stepfather's.

Her stepfather was in the army, and I am 100% sure that, as a teenager, if she had been stopped trying to sneak back into married quarters in a politically sensitive area after hours she would have given his name and not the name of the biological father she never really knew. (100% because it happened on more than one occasion).

MrB

[MrBarnett]

What is being missed here (beam me up Scotty) is that when Charles Lechmere gave the name Cross he wasn't chatting to his muckers in the pub, he was giving evidence under oath.

Surely it was initially when he presented himself at the cop shop, hoping that all he had to do was describe his minor part in the events and mention his Met step dad to avoid any further inconvenience and potential loss of earnings.

[GUT]

Gut,

My wife used her stepfathers' surname until we married. I knew her dad was her stepfather, but I had no idea of her birth father's name until it came to filling out the marriage cert. She then mentioned to the registrar that her surname had not been 'officially' changed from that of her birth father. The registrar suggested that her birth fathers' name should be entered on the marriage cert, and on the few occasions since that she has been asked for her maiden name she has used his name rather than her stepfather's.

Her stepfather was in the army, and I am 100% sure that if she had been stopped trying to sneak back into married quarters in a politically sensitive area after hours she would have given his name and not the name of the biological father she never really knew. (100% because it happened on more than one occasion).

MrB

So maybe she was the ripper.

I also wouldn't find it out of the question that he was so shook up at finding a dead body he didn't think twice before he gave the name he used most often, and then why go to the trouble of an explanation if he was known by that name anyway.

[MrBarnett]

So maybe she was the ripper.

I also wouldn't find it out of the question that he was so shook up at finding a dead body he didn't think twice before he gave the name he used most often, and then why go to the trouble of an explanation if he was known by that name anyway.

GUT,

That assumes he gave his name on the night of Nichols' discovery rather than after a day's reflection.

As for Mrs B being the ripper, you may have something there

MrB

[GUT]

Yes it based on that assumption, that's why I said it wouldn't shock me.

MrsB should join up with my bride. Sounds like they might be sisters.

[MrBarnett]

GUT,

This is where they pull out the 'Mrs Lechmere was illiterate' card. And when you suggest that the neighbours might have made the connection, they insist that prior to 1918 East End neighbourliness didn't exist.

Common sense doesn't stand a chance, I'm afraid.

MrB

Sorry, meant to quote your point about the family picking up on his involvement.

[moonbegger]

There is absolutely No evidence that CrossMere Presented himself at the station at all .. indeed the fact that he was in work attire would suggest otherwise .

Some people are using the religion trick .. if a lie is told often enough it becomes a truth .. I say Hold them horses there .. lets each play our hands with the cards that are on the table , not cards that we wish we had on the table ..

cheers

moonbegger ..

[GUT]

GUT,

This is where they pull out the 'Mrs Lechmere was illiterate' card. And when you suggest that the neighbours might have made the connection, they insist that prior to 1918 East End neighbourliness didn't exist.

Common sense doesn't stand a chance, I'm afraid.

MrB

Sorry, meant to quote your point about the family picking up on his involvement.

I understood and agree, if she was illiterate or not surely she would have heard, it was THE topic.

[Barnaby]

In my opinion, a case has been made against Cross/Lechmere that is at least as strong as any other even if one completely disregards the name change.

By focusing criticism of any one piece, the overall totality of the argument is being missed. People can't see the forest through the trees.

And when cherry picking which arguments to dispute and which to ignore, it is easy to see that much attention is being paid to the name change and little is being paid to the rather odd fact that Robert Paul didn't hear Cross walking ahead of him when he should have. Or why Cross was where he was when he left home considerably earlier.

But let's dispute the name change because that can be argued away.

[drstrange169]

Hello Barnaby,

Could you point me to where Paul claimed he definitely didn't hear Cross/Lechmere in front of him and which report says the time between Cross/Lechmere leaving and his finding the body was unusually long?

Therein lies the problem with Cross/Lechmere's candidacy for jtr. Other than the Cross v Lechmere name business, there is nothing of odd or unusual.

[Lechmere]

The timings dont add up and Paul said he only noticed Lechmere when he was in the road near the corpse despite being only 40 yards behind him.
That's in the record but again has to be disputed.

Moonbeggar is correct that there is no record of Lechmere presenting himself at a police station - he could conceivably have turned up straight at the inquest - that works perfectly well.

[Barnaby]

Dr. Strange,

Your first point is fair. Perhaps he didn't mention it. But it seems odd that he didn't given that he talked about "being on guard" and "hurrying along" and fearful of "terrible gangs." Rather, this reads like Cross just appeared out of the mythical fog.

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about."

Regarding the second point, I believe Fisherman has argued that Cross should have been much farther along had he left home when he said that he did.

[GUT]

Dr. Strange,

Your first point is fair. Perhaps he didn't mention it. But it seems odd that he didn't given that he talked about "being on guard" and "hurrying along" and fearful of "terrible gangs." Rather, this reads like Cross just appeared out of the mythical fog.

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about."

Regarding the second point, I believe Fisherman has argued that Cross should have been much farther along had he left home when he said that he did.

G'day Barnaby

But for all we know he stopped to urinate, or grabbed a bite to eat.

[Barnaby]

To clarify, if Paul was this hypersensitive and on guard to his surroundings, one would think he would have mentioned hearing someone walking ahead of him, had he actually heard this.