Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Lechmere]

If we were investigating this case at the time and found that various of the bodies were found or had been attacked either on or just off (within a few yards) his route on the 31st or his shortest route (which plausibly he would be likely to take) then any investigator would have to be an idiot not to take notice of it.
An investigator would have to be a buffoon to ignore the possibility that he would take the shortest route on occasion.
We are not in a position to suggest whether there was or wasn't a suitable organ repository at Pickford's so that point is neither here no there.
I would rank it as a potentially more suitable organ repository than a Hotel, Lodging House, Family Home or School Lodging.

The popular perception is that the torsos were not linked to the Ripper Crimes? Oh. So that means they cannot be connected? Even though the Pinchin Street Torso is included in the Whitechapel Murder file.

And Ben thinks it is impossible for the murderer to carry out these crimes while on his way to work - that providing an alibi and opportunity to be on the streets at that time. Oh well, just as well you aren't an expert.

[Ben]

I find it odd when people find nothing suspicious in the coincidence of his being found by a body, other bodies littering his work route on the days he would have been there and, as the icing on the cake, a torso being found literally a few yards from where his family ran a horse butchery business.

The above is all nonsense, though, that's the trouble.

Bodies did not "litter" his work route. I'm afraid that if you've allowed yourself to be convinced of that, you are far too easily convinced. His only known work route involved passing two murder sites - Nichols and Chapman, but this is only worth investing any significance in if we had a) any evidence of other serial killers murdering and disposing of their victims en route to work, b) any evidence of a handy organ repository at Pickfords, and we have neither. There is no evidence that the torso murders had anything to do with the murders attributed to the ripper, and popular perception (for good reason) is that no connection exists.

Let's at least have a "cake" to put "icing" on in the first place.

[Lechmere]

Also he was a Carnan not a cabman.
And the wounds were covered prior to Paul's arrival.
And inquest witnesses were expected to attend all day in case they were recalled - although you may wish to argue he may not have been aware of this.
Besides that...
But in any case an experienced investigator such as the real fictitious Miss Marple would look for inconsistencies and behaviours outside the norm. Attending the inquest in work closes is behaviour outside the norm. Not in.itself a sign of guilt, such as small incremental point.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Miss Marple,

Lechmere did not attend the inquest on Saturday and his mother didn't live in Whitechapel. But those quibbles aside, I find it odd when people find nothing suspicious in the coincidence of his being found by a body, other bodies littering his work route on the days he would have been there and, as the icing on the cake, a torso being found literally a few yards from where his family ran a horse butchery business.

MrB

[miss marple]

The evidence against Lechmere [ sorry about the spelling saying it in my head] is ridiculous.

1 Lechmere wore his work clothes to the inquest. Saturday was not a holiday. He was probably going straight back to work after the inquest. He could not afford to lose pay. Cabmen worked all hours.

2 He or Paul or both covered up her wounds. That is a natural gesture of respect. To a Victorian mind set pulling down her skirt would be the normal thing to do and they were not positive she was dead. [ Miss Marple would get that]

3 His mother lived on a murder route. as did hundreds of others The area of Whitechapel was so small. So dragging in the Pinchin street torso is supposed to add weight to your case? Why not do a Cornwell and blame him for every murder going.

I have not made any personal attacks on any individual. I said you wanted an apology was pompous. Before that you accused me of 'calling us things' Which is rather odd as I have not

Once a theory is presented to the world people are going to be influenced by it

Miss Marple

[Fisherman]

I'm not sure whether it's deliberate or not but the inappropriately named Miss Marple perhaps needs to be told it's Lechmere not Letchmere.
I suspect it isn't deliberate as she is under the impression the case hinges on the name swap.
The accusation has previously been made that it hinges on the abdominal wounds being covered, on the Mizen scam (cue hysteria Patrick), on the routes to work, on the proximity of Pinchin Street to his mother's house, on his attendance to the inquest in his work clothes, and so on and so on.

Of course, the "real" miss Marple wouldnīt have apologized either - but in her case, that would owe to her having found out the facts before passing judgement ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

I'm not sure whether it's deliberate or not but the inappropriately named Miss Marple perhaps needs to be told it's Lechmere not Letchmere.
I suspect it isn't deliberate as she is under the impression the case hinges on the name swap.
The accusation has previously been made that it hinges on the abdominal wounds being covered, on the Mizen scam (cue hysteria Patrick), on the routes to work, on the proximity of Pinchin Street to his mother's house, on his attendance to the inquest in his work clothes, and so on and so on.

[Fisherman]

For you, Miss Marple, a snippet from the article "My great great grandfather may have been Jack the Ripper"

(http://www.edp24.co.uk/lifestyle/my_...pper_1_1510610)

But new research 124 years later shows Cross gave a false name to police. He was only classed as a witness after claiming he must have disturbed the killer.

His real name was Charles Allen Lechmere, who lived at 22 Doveton Street off Cambridge Heath Road—five minutes’ walk from Buck’s Row.

After two years’ research, I discovered that Charles Lechmere was my great, great grandfather!

Lechmere escaped suspicion because he was just an ordinary working-class man with 11 children who no-one suspected. He didn’t wear a big top hat or cloak, nor carried a black bag, just ordinary working clothes, braces, waistcoat and cloth cap.

Susan Lechmere

Itīs a complicated world. I keep telling people that.

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

miss marple:

Pardon my cynicism.I just wonder if the descendant of Lechmere thought he was the ripper before the 'case' was presented to her.

I told you so, Miss Marple, didnīt I? Astounding though it may seem, it is the truth. I have known her for three years and I am familiar with the exact circumstances surrounding her work on the carman and her ancestry.

I cannot blame you for being cynical about it all - it sounds extremely odd, I realize that. But it is nevertheless true.

I don't need to apologise to you Fish for anything. I cannot bear pomposity.

I have a lot more problems with people chastising you for low moral standards without having the first idea about the facts, without checking, without asking, without knowing. The Lechmeres were invited to a family gathering very early on, they were told of the theory and the implications, and they responded very generously and overbearingly.

You could have asked.

You would have been told.

But instead, you fired away, calling us things.

I find such things a total disgrace. Apparently you donīt. To you, it is something that I should accept for being "pompous". Itīs seemingly for you, not me, to decide whether you acted correctly or not. And you opted for it being correct and commandable behaviour, apparently.

So much for pomposity!

This will have to stand for you. We set our own standards out here. But I will have nothing to do with it fortwith, thank you very much.

Fisherman

[miss marple]

Pardon my cynicism.I just wonder if the descendant of Lechmere thought he was the ripper before the 'case' was presented to her. Studying the case because you have an ancestor involved is not the same as being presented with a plausible theory and publicity.
There is always a book to be published out of ripper suspects.
So far you have produced no evidence to suggest that Letch was anything other than a hardworking carman with a family to support who used another name that he could have been known by.

I have been waiting a long time for other evidence to suggest that Letch was a serial killer and the irregularity of his lifestyle.

I wait in vain. All we get is the circular argument. Letch gave a false name to police, so he must be a serial killer. He is a serial killer because he gave a false name to the police.

I don't need to apologise to you Fish for anything. I cannot bear pomposity.

Cheers
Miss Marple

[Fisherman]

Gee Fish, you sure know how to make friends and influence people.

I do, donīt I? Please notice that I rarely choose friends among the ones who lightheartedly accuse me of trifles like moral rot before checking their facts. And I can count to three of them the last week only - you should know.

I could, I guess, instead have opted for going along with the falseties to keep the originators happy. But really, Sally, I am not THAT desperate for "friends".

All the best,
Fisherman

PS. Are you absolutely sure that the Lechmere thread bore you..?

[Lechmere]

Patrick
Every single one of your efforts at debunking has been addressed before at length.
Going over old ground again and again and again is not a very productive pastime.
If you were unconvinced by whatever was said before then you will remain unconvinced by repetition.
I have total confidence than none of your objections are significant and would not be seen as such by a disinterested expert in the field. And at the end of the day that is what counts.

[Sally]

These things are what happens when no knowledge of the facts is around and a wish to puke over other people takes priority instead.

Brilliant indeed. Keep enjoying the thread and the "debunking efforts", miss Marple!

Gee Fish, you sure know how to make friends and influence people.

[Harry D]

I think it's worth stating again: I love the IDEA of Cross being the Ripper and would pay to see the photo, as well. The issues I'm having - although I'm enjoying their discussion immensely - is that nothing I've heard to date has made sense.

I'd second that. When I was first getting into Ripperology, Cross was a tantalizing suspect on the face of things. However, when you actually get down to brass tacks, his legitimacy falls apart.

[Fisherman]

I am enjoying this thread! Cheers to you Patrick S for brilliant debunking efforts. I can just sit back without having to contribute anything as I agree with all your posts.

Miss Marple

Speaking of brilliant efforts, we all remember your own last "contribution" to the Lechmere debate, where you severely scolded us for not having spoken to the Lechmere family before going ahead with our theory.

That was very considerate of you.

Of course, we HAD spoken to the family before, and we could and would have informed you about it - if you had asked before raving away, falsely pointing us out as deeply unethical.

What I donīt remember, however, is any sort of apology from you. It just went silent, for some reason ...

Other posters have joined efforts with you and pointed to how nausceous they feel when reading about a descendant to Charles Allen Lechmere speaking to the press, saying that she was the great great granddaughter of Charles.

The fact that this - quite lovely - woman had studied the case for years and was personally convinced that the carman was a very good bid for the killers role BEFORE anyone knew that he was really a Lechmere is of course left totally unconsidered. And understandably so - what you are not aware of, you cannot consider.

The fact that this woman is still very interested in the case, and fascinated by the work done on Lechmere, is left totally unconsidered. And understandably so - what you are not aware of, you cannot consider.

These things are what happens when no knowledge of the facts is around and a wish to puke over other people takes priority instead.

Brilliant indeed. Keep enjoying the thread and the "debunking efforts", miss Marple!

All the best,
Fisherman