Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Fisherman]

>She was illiterate<

Can anyone point me to how we know she was illiterate 1888? Is this statement based on the marriage certificate or are their other examples?

That´s Edwards department, since he has the documents. What I DO know is that not only Elizabeth, but apparently also her parents put their marks on documents instead of signing them. So she apparently came from an illiterate home, which would go to tell us why she could not write as she got married. If there was any change in the condition, I don´t know.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Fish ! How could someone like me , tell someone like you, anything ?

Cheers

moonbegger

In this case, you couldn´t. And don´t feel sorry for yourself - I was referring to the repeated mistakes and misinterpretations you have made (like when you stated that we had said that a police visit to Lechmere´s house would not give away his true identity) when I wrote that you should not castigate Lechmere´s wife.
I am sorry if it offended you, it was not a well chosen wording, but frustration got the better of me. I happen to think that you are a very nice bloke, all in all, so I should have been more patient. I normally am, but this time you first presented a flagrant fault and ascribed it to me/us, whereupon I corrected you - only to have it reiterated AGAIN. That was what made me blow my top. For that I apologize, unconditionally.

All the best,
Fisherman

[drstrange169]

Elizabeth Lechmere


>She was illiterate<

Can anyone point me to how we know she was illiterate 1888? Is this statement based on the marriage certificate or are their other examples?

[moonbegger]

Fine. So tell me how I am castigating Elizabeth Lechmere. Or her family, bar her husband.

Fisherman

Fish ! How could someone like me , tell someone like you, anything ?

Cheers

moonbegger

[Lechmere]

Barnaby

The whole ‘genetic link to criminality’ issue is somewhat controversial.
It could be based on inherited inability to tell right from wrong or a general selfishness or a lack of group cohesiveness.
My guess is that the draconian punishments that were commonplace up until at least the early 19th century would have had the effect of weeding out such characteristics from the gene pool.
But given time, if they were genetic, they would reoccur as they would presumably be the result of random mutation which would be passed on.

In contrast psychopathic traits could be beneficial if harnessed to the acquisition of wealth and power and does not seek an outlet in overtly criminal behaviour.
But murderous psychopathic behaviour, if it was genetic, would tend not to be genetically passed as the bearers of this gene would tend to be eliminated by society.

I think it is important to separate out psychopathic serial killers from the general run of criminals.
Not doing that was a mistake made by the police in 1888.
The factors which create a psychopathic serial killer – part physiological, part environmental – are different from that which create a ‘normal’ criminal.

‘Normal’ criminal behaviour(unlike psychopathic serial killing) is often associated with poverty. But obviously not all poor people turn to crime. Some people clearly have a greater propensity to turn to crime than others. While his must be due to something connected to the criminal’s physiology, it does not necessarily follow that this is genetically passed.

Psychopathic serial killers are clearly much rarer than ‘normal criminals’, so it is more difficult to establish patterns.
But is it found that it runs in the family?
Do we find families of serial killers across generations?
Should we expect to find serial killers in the generations before or after a suspect in order to enhance that suspect’s status?
I don’t think so.
I have never seen any evidence for this.

[Lechmere]

Maybe it did maybe it didn't, who knows?
But in the thousands of column inches there was one mere isolated snip mentioning Doveton Street which would make it easy to miss.
Some testimony, some witnesses, some tall tale tellers were dwelt on and revisited by the press. The Cross aspect was never gone back over and never remarked on.

[MrBarnett]

Ed,

But wasn't this the biggest news story ever? Wasn't the whole country caught up in a JTR fever, with little old ladies in the Lake District double locking their doors to keep the monster out?

I find it hard to believe that a sleepy Doveton Street was totally unaware of its connection to the Nichols murder. It's more credible to me that Mrs L did find out, but if her husband was the monster we suspect him to be (did I say 'we'?) he gave her a right-hander and told her to keep her mouth shut. His attempt to hide his involvement was pretty pathetic and probably didn't work at the time.

MrB

[Lechmere]

Moonbeggar
Only one newspaper reported the address.
They had only just moved not the street.
So there has to be an excellent chance that no connection between the Lechmeres and the crimes was made by the other Doveton Street dwellers.
Mrs Lechmere's husband was probably out every single night of the murders (the double event involves more conjecture on that point) as he went to work at that time.
This - together - somewhat invalidates your post.

[Fisherman]

I do believe that , if this woman and her family are being castigated .. everyone on these boards knows the true culprit ..

Cheers

Moonbegger .

Fine. So tell me how I am castigating Elizabeth Lechmere. Or her family, bar her husband.

Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Here is a rhetorical post

She was not deaf, she was not dumb and she was not blind. We cannot know whether he was unsociable or non gossiping.

She was illiterate. But that should not mean that she be castigated by someone like you for anything else.

I do believe it is not Someone like me me who is suggesting all of the above .. ( I see you didn't take on my "refrain from your arrogant , Ignorant and belittling comments " suggestion ! I guess with someone like you , its less than I had hoped for but more than I expected .

The very same Mrs Lechmere that would have been blind to his being out of the house every single time a murder was committed . (especially as she apparently paid mucho attention to his leaving times )

The very same Mrs Lechmere who would also be Deaf to all the local gossip regarding a certain Charles Allen Cross who lived at 22 doveton street ..

The very same Mrs Lechmere , who would never speak to anyone regarding the biggest Murder hunt in history happening on her doorstep , be it at the shops , market , backyard !

The very same Mrs Lechmere , who would have let the abundance of circumstantial evidence pointing towards her Husband wash over her without her even raising an eyebrow .

Not to mention the Children !! repeating what they hear at school , or playing in the streets with their neighbors kids .. yep thats the Local Doveton community that have a celebrity witness living amongst them ..

One final note regarding your ignorant , arrogant , and incredibly naïve , and offensive comment

But that should not mean that she be castigated by someone like you

I could go into an equally offensive rant about how someone like you should be thankful of someone like me .. but quite frankly its beneath me .

I do believe that , if this woman and her family are being castigated .. everyone on these boards knows the true culprit ..

Cheers

Moonbegger .

[Fisherman]

In the United States, for example, 70% of kids with a parent in jail end up incarcerated at some point in their lives themselves. That's a huge number. So genetic AND environmental, these things tend to run in families.

Let´s not forget, Barnaby, that there is also a clear link inbetween poverty and crime - those who have nothing tend to steal more often than those who are well off. For understandable reasons!

I think this social factor will colour very much why there many times seems to be a "hereditary" factor involved in crime.

The last time over I suggested a thing like this, I was more or less attacked by people yelling that crime is the business of every single man or woman and that poverty has nothing to do with it.

Sadly, it has.

I´ll give your links a read!

The best,
Fisherman

[Barnaby]

To add, I share a quarter of my genes with my brothers, and we were all raised in the same house, and outsiders would say that we are very similar. Yet people close to us know that we are actually very different. Anyone with siblings knows this. Why the differences? As it turns out, the unshared environment takes center stage. Different ages. Different classrooms. Different friends, etc.

Clearly, Lechmere's formative years occurred long before his kids were born, and to the extent something happened here that produced his psychopathology, his offspring might (or may not - no clue about mom) have a genetic risk factor that never manifested itself due to unidentified environmental factors.

[Barnaby]

Hi Lechmere,

There is a strong genetic component to criminality, especially more severe forms such as aggression. Here is one link I found by googling.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02239409#page-1

Also, this TED talk is a good one showing differences in brain functioning (that are in part genetic) between psychopaths (including serial killers) versus controls.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jim_fallon_exploring_the_mind_of_a_killer

That's not to say that being a serial killer is genetic. Genetic factors account for a good chunk of the variance, but usually less than 50%. So, it is a risk factor, a predisposition. The environment clearly matters just as much. The two are inextricably woven.

Having said this, biological offspring of Lechmere would share 50% of his genes and some commonalities in shared environment. If he was a psychopath, I'd like to know what happened to his kids.

In the United States, for example, 70% of kids with a parent in jail end up incarcerated at some point in their lives themselves. That's a huge number. So genetic AND environmental, these things tend to run in families.

[Lechmere]

I don't know of any evidence to suggest that the mental abnormalities that create a psychopathic serial killer are genetic or hereditary.

[Barnaby]

So, way back at the beginning of this thread there was a picture of his great-great granddaughter.

Does anyone know anything about what became of Lechmere's kids? There is a genetic component to being antisocial (and other diagnoses common with serial killers) and I wonder if any of his kids or grandkids ran afoul of the law. Not that this would prove anything one way or the other but still I am interested.