Charles Lechmere interesting link

[moonbegger]

Hello MrB ,

Three things in life are for certain , Taxes , Death , & Women will gossip whenever the occasion rises

I'm not to sure my Nans knowledge of "all things nothing to do with her" , was an exceptional thing back in the day MrB , And I can speak with 100% certainty , that if a major murder to place in Dalston ( 5 mins away ) , between Nan and her Gossiping friends , there would be not a detail , a theory , a culprit , that was not discussed up and down the street , And that's before the papers even released squat .

And God forbid , if it happened to be on my poor old Granddad's route to work ( Let alone discovering the body ), I can only imagine he would have locked himself in the out house for some peace and quiet

There lies my problem with the whole Mrs L being completely in the dark regarding her husbands involvement in the discovery of Polly ..
Even as a new neighbor she would have been involved with the spiraling local gossip , whether she liked it or not .. And all this before the press even released her address !! And I can guarantee you once again MrB , if my Nans address appeared in (Any) local paper , within an hour , all the neighbors would be knocking ..

Having said that , I can see how some people who have no connection , or foundations with lower class or working class London , could perpetuate the myth that everyone kept themselves to themselves .. Peoples minds tend to gravitate towards their own personal and individual experiences .

cheers ,

moonbegger

[MrBarnett]

Greetings MrB ,


Neither could my Nan , And growing up in and around the East End, there was not a thing that went on down our street or in the area that she didn't know about .. in fact most of the time she'd put everyone else in the picture

Cheers , moonbegger

You've outgunned me, Moon (except in respect of East End nans - I had two.) However, a careful reading of your post reveals her to be something of an exception. And furthermore, her knowledge was apparently very localised. So if her next door neighbour had been Mrs Lech she might not have been so clued up after all.

MrB

[moonbegger]

Moon,

Well for a start she couldn't read.

Of course the press created a countrywide panic, but that hadn't really got into its stride at the time Charles juggled his names.

And the panic was about a semi-supernatural monster who attacked women for no apparent reason, nothing to do with gang activity.

MrB

Greetings MrB ,

Well for a start she couldn't read

Neither could my Nan , And growing up in and around the East End, there was not a thing that went on down our street or in the area that she didn't know about .. in fact most of the time she'd put everyone else in the picture .

Of course the press created a countrywide panic, but that hadn't really got into its stride at the time Charles juggled his names.

All I can tell you there MrB , is read the press boards .. it was going off .

And the panic was about a semi-supernatural monster who attacked women for no apparent reason, nothing to do with gang activity.

Here be just the first bunch I looked at ..

Times 1st , "The police have no theory with respect to the matter, except that a gang of ruffians exists in the neighborhood,"

Star 29th ," The other murder, in which the woman received 30 stabs, must also have been the work of a maniac. This murder occurred on Bank Holiday. On the Bank Holiday preceding another woman was murdered in equally brutal but even more barbarous fashion by being stabbed with a stick".

Morn Ad.. "is that there exists in the East end a "high rip" gang who levy blackmail upon wretched outcasts, and murder them when submission is not accorded to their demands. It is a horrible theory for the crime; but the facts are there,"

Evening Sta , " A third theory is that the frequent robberies and occasional murders which have lately taken place in the East-end are the work of a number of young ruffians known as the "High Rip Gang." Recent events have shown that even the West-end of London is not free from this form of crime,"

Echo 31st ."There is yet another suggestion, that these murders may have been the work of a gang of scoundrels who seek to levy blackmail upon unfortunate women."

"Throughout the week the interest in the Whitechapel murder has been kept at fever heat. Following so closely as it does upon the shocking murder of the unfortunate Martha Tabram; such excitement was only to be expected"

"The scene of the fearful tragedy has been daily visited by hundreds of people who freely conversed amongst themselves upon the all absorbing topic"

"It is not surprising that these frequent and brutal crimes should have alarmed the residents in the locality"

And that's just the press MrB , As anyone who has ever lived in the East End will tell you , The really scary **** is the **** that don't make the papers ..

Cheers , moonbegger

[MrBarnett]

I'm sure that this back-and-forth must be frustrating to both sides. But it is certainly not unique. Within science, Charles Darwin once half jokingly stated that scientists should die at 60, because after that age there is little chance that they can objectively evaluate new theories. On the other hand, and as pointed out by Thomas Kuhn, a skeptical old guard ensures a thorough vetting of new theories. I see all of this at play here; I conclude that the apparent dysfunction is healthy!

Well put, Barnaby.

I'm amazed at how team Lech find the energy to answer the same old questions ad nauseum. It says much for their conviction of Lech's guilt. And the playful tone of most of the exchanges is entertaining.

But having said that, it would be nice to have something new to get our teeth into. A tasty piece of cat's meat perhaps? I personally go for a JTR with some butchery experience and would like to hear what others think on the subject.

If the topic was part of a Crossmere thread I think it would have a longer life span just a plain old 'Did Jack Have Butchery Skills?' thread.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

Moon,

Well for a start she couldn't read.

Of course the press created a countrywide panic, but that hadn't really got into its stride at the time Charles juggled his names.

And the panic was about a semi-supernatural monster who attacked women for no apparent reason, nothing to do with gang activity.

And Doveton St, for all it's apparent proximity on the map, was probably a world away from the mean streets of Spitalfields where the residents had first hand experience of the Rips.

MrB

[Fisherman]

I'm sure that this back-and-forth must be frustrating to both sides. But it is certainly not unique. Within science, Charles Darwin once half jokingly stated that scientists should die at 60, because after that age there is little chance that they can objectively evaluate new theories. On the other hand, and as pointed out by Thomas Kuhn, a skeptical old guard ensures a thorough vetting of new theories. I see all of this at play here; I conclude that the apparent dysfunction is healthy!

Now thereīs a comfort and a half ...

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbeggar ,

Show me the wild stories that every publication ran about the gangs

MrB

Who ever said the tabloid press had the monopoly on exaggeration

But if you make a start with Mrs L , i'll do my best to catch up

cheers , moonbegger

[Barnaby]

I'm sure that this back-and-forth must be frustrating to both sides. But it is certainly not unique. Within science, Charles Darwin once half jokingly stated that scientists should die at 60, because after that age there is little chance that they can objectively evaluate new theories. On the other hand, and as pointed out by Thomas Kuhn, a skeptical old guard ensures a thorough vetting of new theories. I see all of this at play here; I conclude that the apparent dysfunction is healthy!

[Fisherman]

moonbegger: Fish ,

don't you mean yes , exactly like that !

No. Not at all, actually.

So he would Not be charged for any illegal , law-breaking , criminal act ?

For giving the wrong name? No - but he would draw suspicion upon himself.

And if he was confident that he himself was not the killer , he would have nothing to hide ...

Letīs see now ... if he was confident he was not the killer, would he have anything to hide... hmmmm ....

Tough question, that one! But after deliberating for a longish time, Iīve decided to go with a "No". I base it on the fact that innocent people never have anything to hide - thatīs what "innocent" means: having nothing to hide.

I would have thought that was as obvious as Mount Fuji on a clear day, but correct me if I am wrong.

,,,, or indeed anything to fear from Police suspicion ?

That is a slightly trickier one, Moon. Issenschmidt was innocent (sorry, Lynn), but did that mean that he had nothing to fear from police suspicion? Apparently not. So all we can say is that innocent people ought not to have anything to fear from police suspicion. Sometimes it does not pan out that way, though.

Altogther, I think it is a strictly academic view you are applying here, since Lechmere would in all probabaility not have been innocent in the first place.

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

But do let me know if you come across some factual documentation contradicting these wild stories that almost every publication conspired to create .. I would love to hear how it really was back then ..

Hi Moonbeggar ,

Show me the wild stories that every publication ran about the gangs and I'll have a go at explaining why that might not have been uppermost in Mrs L's mind.


MrB

[moonbegger]

You could be right there Mr Barnett , Maybe nothing happened at all , no murders , no criminals , no crime , no gossiping grannys , Maybe we have all been sold a huge Victorian lemon , those pesky ole East Enders eh

But do let me know if you come across some factual documentation contradicting these wild stories that almost every publication conspired to create .. I would love to hear how it really was back then ..

On the assumption that the crime was committed by one of a "High Rip" gang, some of whose names are known, the police are, it is stated, empowered by the Chief Commissioner to give money payment to those who give confidential statements, with the additional assurance that any one who turn's Queen's evidence against the actual perpetrator will be at once pardoned of any participation he may have had in the matter. The murder is of such an exceptionally brutal character that the detective officers are using the most strenuous exertions to bring the criminals to justice.

Those pesky Policemen are at it now

cheers , moonbegger .

[MrBarnett]

Hi Moonbeggar,

If the press said it was so, then it must have been.

Lucky old Victorians, eh, in those innocent days before journalistic exaggeration.

MrB

[moonbegger]

Hello MrBarnett ,

Let's not overestimate the reach of the 'legendary' High Rips.

Yes , and lets not underestimate the power of fear !

Throughout the week the interest in the Whitechapel murder has been kept at fever heat. Following so closely as it does upon the shocking murder of the unfortunate Martha Tabram; such excitement was only to be expected, ignoring altogether the horrible mutilation of the second victim. The scene of the fearful tragedy has been daily visited by hundreds of people who freely conversed amongst themselves upon the all absorbing topic - the prospects of bringing the murderer to justice, while the green gates of the mortuary in Montague-street were the objects of an awesome curiosity. Special writers and artists have visited the spot in large numbers, and many are the inquiries that have been promiscuously set on foot in the neighbourhood by amateur detectives. It is not surprising that these frequent and brutal crimes should have alarmed the residents in the locality - which it is well known is a rather low one - especially as there seems at present to be no likelihood of the perpetrators of these dreadful outrages being discovered. The residents are only too willing and glad to be of any service to the authorities, so there is no difficulty in this respect. Of course, there are many rumours as to the action of the police. It is stated, though not authoritatively, that the detectives are carefully watching a number of persons in the vicinity

[moonbegger]

Moonbeggar
I certainly haven't used anything like that argument with respect to anything whatsoever.
Using an alternative name would have been no protection from the legendary High Rips. I would presume they didn't know his name anyway.

"He had no idea how much Paul had witnessed or what he had seen"

Ok Ed , I had always assumed that was a main reason given by team Lechmere, as to why he waited and confronted Paul ?

In fact it was the only reason that that made the whole flight or fight argument semi plausible .

I still don't understand why keeping your real ( more familiar ) name out of the papers would be such a bad thing at all .. Especially if suspected of disturbing a vicious murder ! And yes , where there's a will there's a way , people can discover almost anything if they have a mind to , but why make it easy for them . And you can play down the whole gang thing as much as you like , but back then it was very real and people were very fearful , the local papers were full of it .. In fact we have more evidence for this than we do anything "Guilty Lechmere" related .

moonbegger

[MrBarnett]

Let's not overestimate the reach of the 'legendary' High Rips.
They were not the mafia. They controlled a few local streets, I doubt that Mrs Lech had even heard of them.

MrB.