A Cross by any other name...smells like JtR?

[Hunter]

A feller from New York was passing a feller from Tennessee on the sidewalk when he noticed the feller from Tennessee was wearing one shoe.

"Hey, man!" snapped the feller from New York, "looks like you've lost a shoe."

"What you tawkin' about feller?" asked the puzzled Tennessean. " Hell, I just found one."

I luv joke threads.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,it is quite possible that the poor victims approached their killer of their own freewill and took him of to a place that they knew they would not be disturbed.

yes this seems to be the accepted theory but I doubt it. The ripper wouldnt leave his fate in the hands of his victims

[pinkmoon]

Didn't 3 of the C5 reside at Flower & Dean...which I guess I've been misunderstanding as an intersection of streets when it's actually one street.
I think the Killer knew the victims but I cant answer how he planned the killings so well. Perhaps he had some way of getting up to date info on the police beats..Eddowes WAS at the police station the night of her murder...not sure how that figures in. Planning a meeting with the girls is possible but he runs a risk of them telling someone beforehand. Do you see these crimes as random unplanned attacks?

Hi Rocky,it is quite possible that the poor victims approached their killer of their own freewill and took him of to a place that they knew they would not be disturbed.

[RockySullivan]

Interesting theory, but how did the killer, having studied all the police beats, (a) know that the City Police would be working their beats left-handed on the occasion of the Eddowes murder and (b) know that the chosen victims would conveniently appear at the carefully chosen killing location at a time which would fit in with his careful calculation of the location of police patrols?

I've seen no evidence that the killer had intimate knowledge of the police patrol routine and certainly none that he knew the various victims.

I'm not clear what you are trying to say with "All from the exact same intersection" though.

Didn't 3 of the C5 reside at Flower & Dean...which I guess I've been misunderstanding as an intersection of streets when it's actually one street.
I think the Killer knew the victims but I cant answer how he planned the killings so well. Perhaps he had some way of getting up to date info on the police beats..Eddowes WAS at the police station the night of her murder...not sure how that figures in. Planning a meeting with the girls is possible but he runs a risk of them telling someone beforehand. Do you see these crimes as random unplanned attacks?

[pinkmoon]

My feelings exactly, anyone limiting the scope to a local who planned is, in my opinion, limiting the range suspects far more than the evidence permits.

Hi gut,luck played a larger part in these murders than planning our killer took some appalling risks when committing his crimes what we have to remember is that his victims knew where to take him to give them a degree of privacy.If our killer did live locally would he have waited 6 weeks between murders if all he had to do was pop out for a few minutes and be able to pop home soon after the murders I think not.

[Bridewell]

hi bridewell...to me it appears the killer would only take the extreme risk in committing the ripper murders if he covered all his bases first. Studying the police beats...knowing small hidden spots to kill where he was positive he wouldnt be disturbed. He wouldnt just kill anywhere without watching that spot for weeks and being certain no one would disturb him at the time of the murder. He would have to know all possible escape routes in order to avoid anyone seeing him. A visitor to whitechapel could not have done these murders. This is someone who pre-planned the killings weeks in advance.

Another thing is most of the victims residing at flower & dean. The killer obviously knew all the victims...they are clearly chosen and not random or they wouldnt all be from the exact same intersection.

Interesting theory, but how did the killer, having studied all the police beats, (a) know that the City Police would be working their beats left-handed on the occasion of the Eddowes murder and (b) know that the chosen victims would conveniently appear at the carefully chosen killing location at a time which would fit in with his careful calculation of the location of police patrols?

I've seen no evidence that the killer had intimate knowledge of the police patrol routine and certainly none that he knew the various victims.

I'm not clear what you are trying to say with "All from the exact same intersection" though.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

The way I look at things, there are two big differences between the Ripper and the Torso Killer:
1. The Ripper mostly killed out in the streets and in a relatively small area, while the Torso Killer at least dumped his victims in a much larger area
2. The Ripper killed a number of women in the space of only 1 to 3 months, while the Torso Killers victims were murdered in the course of years.

If the Ripper was a meticulous planner, then why commit a couple of the murders out in the open streets where anybody could walk into him at any given moment. Or do you believe he had also studied the movements and timings of anybody who could pass a murder site when he was there with one of his victims? If he was the planner you suggest he was, I would expect to have seen more murders like Kelly or victims found in some of the abandoned buildings in the area. Or better yet, I would expect him to have killed them like the Torso Killer. Because it seems inescapable to me that the Torso Killer did have some private place at his disposal to cut up the victims he made.

The fact that the Ripper killed in such a short period and out in the open streets to me points to a killer whose urge was bigger than his control over it and therefore was unable to wait longer than a number of weeks before he needed to kill again.

A much more feasible picture of the Ripper to me is that he knew the area very well, possibly by working there but probably because he lived there and that he was an opportunistic killer rather than a planner. The only precautions he took to minimize the risk of getting caught were to go looking for suitable victims in the small hours of the night when most people were asleep or trying to get some sleep, that he saw to it that he didn’t get covered in blood, that he wasted no time, that he kept his eyes and ears open while at the crime spot and that he didn’t behave too suspiciously. I agree with your view that he was a watcher and perhaps to some extent a stalker, but I don’t believe he was the planner you suggest he was. All this, however, doesn’t mean he must have been a lunatic.

Just my 2 cents though.

All the best,
Frank

Hey Frank good points. Perhaps what brought the killer to the streets was that he was looking for the rush. I think he wanted the press and to make the public fear him. It doesn't make much sense I admit. Still what makes less sense is how he cut out the organs in the dark on the street. I imagine the Rippers "flat" like Ed geins or Dahmer's...full of body parts...human liver on the stove top...blood in ginger beer bottles...etc

[Lechmere]

No better informed than suggesting the that many unknown serial killers stopped - for a myriad of reasons - lived out the rest of their lives and were never detected.

[FrankO]

Too me the Ripper seems to have every possible aspect of the crimes calculated. He's not leaving anything to chance and therefore the idea that the C5 are victims of opportunity seems ridiculous to me. The idea of a lunatic wandering the streets of Whitechapel looking for a prostitute to slice up in any random dark corner...perhaps he'll take a kidney or a uterus....I think that's a misnomer dating back to the murders that has become ingrained our thinking. A serial killer like the ripper just wouldnt operate that way. The Ripper likely dedicated every waking moment to planning and stalking, watching.

Hi Rocky,

The way I look at things, there are two big differences between the Ripper and the Torso Killer:
1. The Ripper mostly killed out in the streets and in a relatively small area, while the Torso Killer at least dumped his victims in a much larger area
2. The Ripper killed a number of women in the space of only 1 to 3 months, while the Torso Killers victims were murdered in the course of years.

If the Ripper was a meticulous planner, then why commit a couple of the murders out in the open streets where anybody could walk into him at any given moment. Or do you believe he had also studied the movements and timings of anybody who could pass a murder site when he was there with one of his victims? If he was the planner you suggest he was, I would expect to have seen more murders like Kelly or victims found in some of the abandoned buildings in the area. Or better yet, I would expect him to have killed them like the Torso Killer. Because it seems inescapable to me that the Torso Killer did have some private place at his disposal to cut up the victims he made.

The fact that the Ripper killed in such a short period and out in the open streets to me points to a killer whose urge was bigger than his control over it and therefore was unable to wait longer than a number of weeks before he needed to kill again.

A much more feasible picture of the Ripper to me is that he knew the area very well, possibly by working there but probably because he lived there and that he was an opportunistic killer rather than a planner. The only precautions he took to minimize the risk of getting caught were to go looking for suitable victims in the small hours of the night when most people were asleep or trying to get some sleep, that he saw to it that he didn’t get covered in blood, that he wasted no time, that he kept his eyes and ears open while at the crime spot and that he didn’t behave too suspiciously. I agree with your view that he was a watcher and perhaps to some extent a stalker, but I don’t believe he was the planner you suggest he was. All this, however, doesn’t mean he must have been a lunatic.

Just my 2 cents though.

All the best,
Frank

[RockySullivan]

To Rocky

But the Torso Killer left body parts all over London, not just in Whitechapel. Also why the change of M.O. And thirdly which murders do you attribute to the Torso Killer are you including the murders from 1873-74 and 1884?

Cheers John

Dear John, I'm far from knowledgeable about the torso murders. However it does seem like the only logical explanation to me. The coroners reports clearly indicate to me that Ripper was very practiced at cutting up bodies. The way he removed the organs in such little time with such little light...and some specifics like the way he slit down and left a little flap around the belly button....it looks to me like someone who developed their own method for removing organs. I'm of the opinion that JTR was a very prolific serial killer like LISK with many murders not attributed to him. JTR also appears to be the type of killer who would switch his mo. Too me the Ripper seems to have every possible aspect of the crimes calculated. He's not leaving anything to chance and therefore the idea that the C5 are victims of opportunity seems ridiculous to me. The idea of a lunatic wandering the streets of Whitechapel looking for a prostitute to slice up in any random dark corner...perhaps he'll take a kidney or a uterus....I think that's a misnomer dating back to the murders that has become ingrained our thinking. A serial killer like the ripper just wouldnt operate that way. The Ripper likely dedicated every waking moment to planning and stalking, watching. The Ripper would have hundreds of victims...I think torso is the obvious choice...just look at Mary Kelly

[lynn cates]

Hanbury

Hello Rocky.

"...to me it appears the killer would only take the extreme risk in committing the ripper murders if he covered all his bases first. Studying the police beats...knowing small hidden spots to kill where he was positive he wouldn't be disturbed. He wouldn't just kill anywhere without watching that spot for weeks and being certain no one would disturb him at the time of the murder."

Surely not the case for Hanbury?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

intent

Hello Edward. Thanks.

Initially, yes, his name was taken down.

"I would be interested to see your list of people who hid their identity."

You mean those whom have more than one name? "Hiding" involves intent, and that is quite difficult to ascertain.

"I would also be interested to see if you can produce a list of people who didn't want to be mentioned in relation to this case, or any evidence to that effect."

"Want"? Vide supra.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

How many known serial killer stopped because they committed suicide or because they were locked up in a mental asylum?
Most known serial killers stop because they are caught.
There have been a substantial number of serial killer who were never caught.
Is it supposed that they carried on killing until they themselves died a natural death?

On another note there are obviously lots of things associated with this case that we can only guess at. But we can take informed guesses.

Well a lot of them stopped because they were sent to prison.

The ones who's identity we do not know may have continued or may well have committed suicide or been locked in a mental asylum, if we don't know who they are, then clearly we don't KNOW who they killed or what end they met and that is slightly more than in informed guess.

[Lechmere]

How many known serial killer stopped because they committed suicide or because they were locked up in a mental asylum?
Most known serial killers stop because they are caught.
There have been a substantial number of serial killer who were never caught.
Is it supposed that they carried on killing until they themselves died a natural death?

On another note there are obviously lots of things associated with this case that we can only guess at. But we can take informed guesses.

[Damaso Marte]

Maybe not but then you need a good hypothesis as to why he stopped.

I disagree. We don't know enough about the killer to be able to assert that he would have kept killing until prevented.

We can at best say that given what serial killers generally do, he probably kept killing until he was stopped, died, arrested, etc. But this is a probability, not a fact: who's to say that Jack wasn't in the minority who do stop killing on their own?