A Cross by any other name...smells like JtR?

[Damaso Marte]

I do not believe that we can rule out a particular suspect just because they lived past 1888 with no obvious reason to stop killing.

[RockySullivan]

At least one Had relationships a job and stopped killing for a long period of time, I just don't believe Jack did due to the extremely violent and escalating nature of his crimes.

hi gut....that's exaxtly why i think the ripper was the torso murderer. the only way he could know whitechapel so well and plan the murders he had to live there. it seems the ripper as torso is the obvious explanation. It explains how Jack knew how to remove organs...he had plenty of practice cutting up bodies.

Lechmere is surely the right type of suspect. Someone who would insert themselves into investigation. I think the Ripper was calculated enough that he wouldn't let himself be found with a body but would likely insert himself in another way.

[lynn cates]

reason

Hello Patrick. Thanks.

Well, it would depend on why it was done. If Lechmere were known as Lechmere to family and friends (and not just on official documents) his use of Cross would be decidedly odd.

So, in that case, I'd want to find a good (sinister) reason to use it. If he had disappeared afterwards, it would be easy to see why he did it.

Cheers.
LC

[pinkmoon]

Many Ripperologists aren't convinced that whoever butchered MJK would suddenly stop unless forced to. What was Lechmere's reason?

Hi Harry,I totally agree with you harry people always seem to forget this important point when they offer us a suspect to simply expect a suspect to get better and stop killing is not good enough give me a suspect who dies soon after Mary's appalling murder or is imprisoned and I'm all ears.

[GUT]

G'day Patrick

That's part of my reasoning in never really considering Cross/Lechmere a realistic JtR. As we are likely to hear from those who have fallen for Lechmere, there are exceptions to every rule, and they'll name serial killers who held down jobs and maintained relationships, even stopped killing for no apparent reason (i.e. they weren't caught or died). Lechmere did all of these things, lived a seemingly normal life, dying in his bed as an old (for the time) man. Never suspected by police. Never mentioned as a suspect in similar crimes or - so far as we know - ANY crimes.

At least one Had relationships a job and stopped killing for a long period of time, I just don't believe Jack did due to the extremely violent and escalating nature of his crimes.

[GUT]

G'day Richard

Hi Patrick S.
I love this game its full of magical coincidences, a couple could actually point to Lechmere's guilt.
He was 39 years old.
His Stepfather Thomas Cross died aged 39[ a policeman]
The above will mean nothing to you Patrick, but 39 is significant once again..
Regards Richard.

I knew Richard would spot the 39.

BTW Richard were you 39 when the idea struck you.

[Patrick S]

Many Ripperologists aren't convinced that whoever butchered MJK would suddenly stop unless forced to. What was Lechmere's reason?

That's part of my reasoning in never really considering Cross/Lechmere a realistic JtR. As we are likely to hear from those who have fallen for Lechmere, there are exceptions to every rule, and they'll name serial killers who held down jobs and maintained relationships, even stopped killing for no apparent reason (i.e. they weren't caught or died). Lechmere did all of these things, lived a seemingly normal life, dying in his bed as an old (for the time) man. Never suspected by police. Never mentioned as a suspect in similar crimes or - so far as we know - ANY crimes.

[Harry D]

Many Ripperologists aren't convinced that whoever butchered MJK would suddenly stop unless forced to. What was Lechmere's reason?

[Patrick S]

Hello Patrick. Thanks for starting this thread.

In my humble opinion, there are only two issues of concern with the name conundrum.

1. Was he known as Cross or Lechmere to his friends?

If the former, #2 does not really begin. But, if the latter:

2. What was gained by giving Cross as his name rather than Lechmere?

If nothing, then:

2'. What did he INTEND to gain in giving that name?

Cheers.
LC

I agree on all points, Lynn. I found three census records for the family (61, 71 and 81, I think) and all names are listed as Lechmere (or Lechmere).

It's an interesting facet of the case, to be certain. But there are many, many miles to go before I find it a reason to suspect him a serial killer.

Remember, Barack Obama called himself Barry Sotero after his mother remarried. Now, I am no great fan of the US president. But, if I found that, years after he began going by his birth name, he gave the name Barry Sotero insead of Barack Obama, I would not be overly surprised, alarmed, or suspicous.

[lynn cates]

conundrum

Hello Patrick. Thanks for starting this thread.

In my humble opinion, there are only two issues of concern with the name conundrum.

1. Was he known as Cross or Lechmere to his friends?

If the former, #2 does not really begin. But, if the latter:

2. What was gained by giving Cross as his name rather than Lechmere?

If nothing, then:

2'. What did he INTEND to gain in giving that name?

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Patrick S.
I love this game its full of magical coincidences, a couple could actually point to Lechmere's guilt.
He was 39 years old.
His Stepfather Thomas Cross died aged 39[ a policeman]
The above will mean nothing to you Patrick, but 39 is significant once again..
Regards Richard.

[Patrick S]

There seems to be a lot of discussion around the Nichols witness Charles Cross and why he gave that name. Is this suspicious? Is it not?

I thought that it may be a good idea to start a thread to discuss this topic and get much of what’s known on the table.

I am no expert on Cross. I’m sure Fisherman and Lechmere can contribute much more. Here is what I have on hand:

From this site: Born Charles Allen Lechmere in 1849, St Anne's, Soho, son of John Allen Lechmere and Maria Louisa (nee Roulson). In 1858, Charles' mother remarried, to Thomas Cross, a policeman and Charles took his surname.

The highest level facts of Charles Lechmere’s life are as follow:

o Birth: 1849 - Middlesex, England
o Marriage: 3 Jul 1870 - London, England
o Death: 23 Dec 1920 - London, England
o Parents: John Allen Lechmere, Maria Louisa Roulson
o Spouse: Elizabeth Bostock

Lechmere’s mother, Maria Louisa Roulson married Thomas Cross in 1858. Charles was – at this time – around nine years old. Thomas Cross – as best I can tell - died aged 39 in London, 1860 (?).

The 1881 census shows ‘Chas. Allen Lechmer’, a carman, aged 31, married to ‘Elizth. Lechmer’, living at 20 James St., London. There are four children aged 1 to 7 (“Eliz. Thom. Geo. Jas”).

What else do we have? What do I have wrong? What’s fishy? Where do we go from here?