Polly's Skirts - Lechmere The Killer.

[Fiver]

Since 2012?, the argument by Christer and a few others has been that Lechmere was trying to conceal his identity from his wife and neighbors in newspaper accounts.

And the argument remains nonsense.

The evidence shows that he identified himself as Charles Allen Cross of 22 Doveton Street, a carman who had been working for Pickfords for the last couple decades and whose shift started at the Broad Street Station at 4am. Who would ever suspect that he was the stepson of Thomas Cross, Charles Allen Lechmere of 22 Doveton Street, a carman who had been working for Pickfords for the last couple decades and whose shift started at the Broad Street Station at 4am? What a baffling mystery! Holmes himself would be stumped!

Charles Lechmere was not trying to hide his identity from the coroner, the police, the press, his family, his neighbors, his coworkers, or his employers.

He most certainly didn't present himself to his neighbors on Doveton street as Charles Cross: his wife, children and patrilineal descendents all go by Lechmere. And his wife had the strange habit of signing an 'X' on her marriage certificate and other documents, so her literacy is gravely in question.

Elizabeth Lechmere was illiterate. There is no evidence that she was deaf. And her numerous children were literate.

If you wish to give me an example of males who made a choose between using a different name in our enlightened age from that of his children, please enlighten me.

There are whole threads about the name issue.

Like here.

And here.

And here.

[Fiver]

Of course, there is another option that doesn't seem to have been considered...

...that the Ripper mutilated Nichols as the train passed and then didn't hear Lechmere approaching...

I ask this...

What if it was Lechmere who was the only witness to see the Ripper?

Did Lechmere state his name as Cross, in an attempt to protect his family, because he had seen the Ripper and was fearful of reprisal from the killer?

If Lechmere stumbled upon the Ripper and then the killer saw him approaching; there could also be a possibility that the killer threatened him before fleeing.

Pure conjecture but more likely to me than Lechmere having been the Ripper himself

RD

If Lechmere was threatened into silence by the Ripper, why didn't he just keep walking to work? If he was worried about reprisal from the killer, why did he give his address publicly at the inquest instead of asking the coroner to not have to state the address publicly?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Just a couple of comments. If Lech decided to pickup a woman in Whitechapel Road and they went to a quiet place in Buck's Row, he would have been quoting an approximate time for leaving home that would sound reasonable - no relationship to whatever time he actually left home. Wouldn't his wife have noticed what time he left I hear you ask. If she was anything like my ex-wife - NO!.

Secondly, I would beg your indulgence to my altering your scenario slightly:
He strangles Polly, and presuming she is dead proceeds to start the mutilation.
Start your own stopwatches. He hears the man, he wipes his bloody knife, stands up and starts to move off. As he does, Polly stirs. He ponders whether she could identify him or raise an alarm. He decides not to take the risk, retrieves his knife and cuts her throat. Not knowing how close the man now is, he pulls the clothing down to conceal the abdominal injuries and moves to the middle of the road whilst concealing the knife in his clothing. Stop your stopwatch. This is consistent with the medical opinion of Llewellyn. He moves towards the man thinking that if the man has seen something he will run away. The man responds by accepting the invitation to look at the woman lying in the street, and the bluff begins.

I don't have a preferred suspect so I am just considering possibilities. However, I am still mystified how Paul could have knelt to see if she was breathing and touched her chest without noticing the gaping wound in her throat.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

My main issue would be that with the man approaching Cross wouldn’t have known at what point he’d become visible so he’d have been taking a massive risk in returning to the body. Unless he was confident that Paul was a great distance away though. But if he’d he’d heard Paul from a great distance away fleeing would have been an even easier decision.

I can certainly understand your questioning how Paul didn’t see the throat wounds. Or her open eyes too?

[rjpalmer]

The 3:30 am time (+/- a few minutes) is what we have from Lechmere's testimony.
If it is all we have, that still does not make it a fact, other than being an actual statement made at the inquest.

The same is true of Robert Paul's claim to have left for work at 3:45.

And yet you, Ed Stow, and Christer Holmgren treat Paul's statement as gospel in order to "prove" there is a time gap.

It's beyond ridiculous.

[Geddy2112]

Let me again mention another witness at one of the Ripper inquests. The surname on his marriage license was Lavender. The surname in the censuses for him, his wife, and his children, was Lavender. In a 1876 proceeding at the Old Bailey, his surname was given as Levender [sic] and it is clear from the court records that his friends knew his surname as Lavender. He appeared in city directories as Lavender. He was buried as Lavender.

But at the Eddowes inquest, he used the name Joseph Lawende. He never mentioned the surname Lavender.

You know since that 'fact' was repeated on FB it has now been used in the latest HoL video, you are officially famous!

[Geddy2112]

The same is true of Robert Paul's claim to have left for work at 3:45.

And yet you, Ed Stow, and Christer Holmgren treat Paul's statement as gospel in order to "prove" there is a time gap.

It's beyond ridiculous.

...considering Paul's statements across the reports are much more varied than anyone else's. That is what I find suspicious. I also find it difficult that Ed and Christer believe the first sentence of Cross's testimony but not other bits. He's telling the truth, he's lying, he's now telling the truth, oh that bit is a lie etc. How can that be safe researching. Who are we to decide what is truth or lie (unless we have corroboration.)

[Paddy Goose]

We are up to Twenty Nine Thousand posts under Suspects/Lechmere. It's what we do now. We all gather here on the top line to discuss Lechmere.

Christer has won. He has well and truly turned Casebook into Lechbook. With an assist from Ed, of course.

Don't people get that?

[The Rookie Detective]

If Lechmere was threatened into silence by the Ripper, why didn't he just keep walking to work? If he was worried about reprisal from the killer, why did he give his address publicly at the inquest instead of asking the coroner to not have to state the address publicly?

I happen to agree with you Fiver.

I was just throwing it out there but from your post I think we can almost certainly rule out that the Ripper and Lechmere crossed paths that night (morning)

It then provides us with an almost practical certainty that the Ripper wasn't there when Lechmere arrived.

That might seem blatantly obviously, but it is still good to reiterate the point.


RD

[kjab3112]

As I am sure I’ve implied/posted before, surely if Lechmere was the killer he’d kill on the way home from not to work? We are supposed to believe that on that particular night Lechmere happened to meet Polly, having left home just seven minutes earlier than needed, go to the site of her death, perform and attempt to cover up her injuries. If responsible, Lechmere would surely kill on the way home, after all we know that some of the Rookeries never saw true daylight, not happen upon a victim when he was running a few minutes early. Was he present in Whitechapel, yes; was he capable physically of committing the murder, again yes; does it make sense that he did, in my view no.

Paul

[John Wheat]

We are up to Twenty Nine Thousand posts under Suspects/Lechmere. It's what we do now. We all gather here on the top line to discuss Lechmere.

Christer has won. He has well and truly turned Casebook into Lechbook. With an assist from Ed, of course.

Don't people get that?

Lame isn't it. We are on a website concerning Jack the Ripper and we spend most of the time on someone who is clearly innocent of all the Ripper murders.

[Fiver]

As I am sure I’ve implied/posted before, surely if Lechmere was the killer he’d kill on the way home from not to work? We are supposed to believe that on that particular night Lechmere happened to meet Polly, having left home just seven minutes earlier than needed, go to the site of her death, perform and attempt to cover up her injuries. If responsible, Lechmere would surely kill on the way home, after all we know that some of the Rookeries never saw true daylight, not happen upon a victim when he was running a few minutes early. Was he present in Whitechapel, yes; was he capable physically of committing the murder, again yes; does it make sense that he did, in my view no.

Paul

Exactly. Starting work at 4am means Charles Lechmere would finish his deliveries 14 to 18 hours later. Mrs Lechmere would not expect her husband to be home at the same time twice in a row and arriving home as early as 6:30pm or as late as 10:30pm would be possible. A killer carman would have hours of slack after work, not the 10 or 15 minutes squeezed into his trip to work. Plus fresh blood stains could be explained as being unlucky enough to get stuck transporting improperly wrapped meat.

[Geddy2112]

Exactly. Starting work at 4am means Charles Lechmere would finish his deliveries 14 to 18 hours later. Mrs Lechmere would not expect her husband to be home at the same time twice in a row and arriving home as early as 6:30pm or as late as 10:30pm would be possible. A killer carman would have hours of slack after work, not the 10 or 15 minutes squeezed into his trip to work. Plus fresh blood stains could be explained as being unlucky enough to get stuck transporting improperly wrapped meat.

I really still can't work out how any intelligent person thinks, let alone vehemently stands by, a notion that someone would murder someone on the way to work on a street they very likely could be identified on 50 yards away from PC81 GER and do so making them late for work with blood on their hands. It really does beggar belief.

[Fiver]

We are up to Twenty Nine Thousand posts under Suspects/Lechmere. It's what we do now. We all gather here on the top line to discuss Lechmere.

Christer has won. He has well and truly turned Casebook into Lechbook. With an assist from Ed, of course.

Don't people get that?

So what would you like to talk about?

[John Wheat]

So what would you like to talk about?

I'm guessing anything to do with Jack the Ripper other than the witness Lechmere.

[Fiver]

I'm guessing anything to do with Jack the Ripper other than the witness Lechmere.

There are plenty of threads that aren't about CAL.
36k posts on General Suspect Discussion.
24k posts on Maybrick.
20k posts on Hutchnson.
15k posts on Kosminski.
10k posts on Druitt.

Under victims there are
28k posts on Kelly.
22k posts on Stride.
15k posts on Eddowes.