Why Cross Was Almost Certainly Innocent

[JeffHamm]

Why would they see each other before reaching Bucks Row Abby?
If Lechmere passes the bottom of foster just before or as Paul leaves the house, it's very unlikely to put it mildly they would see each other.
I cover this in some detail in Inside Bucks Row, with distances involved and timings

Steve

Yah, and that's what my simulations suggested as well, that there really wasn't a time when Paul would see Cross/Lechmere until after both were in Buck's Row. I think in one of the configurations (I tried a couple of different settings) there was a couple of seconds where it could have been possible, but it was so tight it is hardly a stretch to understand how Paul might not have seen him. Reality isn't a simulation after all (or wait? Is it?) .

Of course, if Paul did see Cross/Lechmere before but just never mentioned that in his testimony, then that's a shame for us as it would resolve the whole issue for all but the most determined.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

so lech hears and or sees paul approaching when theyre about 40 yards apart in bucks row but neither do as they are walking toward bucks row? according to lech his hesitation in bucks row sounds like its only seconds, maybe Thirty seconds or so until he notices paul. how do they not notice each other before then?

IIRC, if Lechmere was 50 yards ahead of Paul, the Lechmere wouldn't have been visible until Paul entered Bucks Row.

[Fiver]

See the following link, Post #74.

Was Lech known as Cross at Pickfords?? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

"Lechmere," is Ed Stow.

He was allowed to search Pickford's 19th Century records and there was nothing pertaining to individual employees.

Thanks for the link. The Pickford's site claims it was done by a descendant of Lechmere. Is Butler taking credit for his girlfriend's research?

I'd deduced that was the nick being used by Butler on this site. Thanks for confriming that.

I do note the page that Butler shared shows deliveries of Wine & spirits, News/Printed Matter, and Hardware. You think he'd at least have tried to find raw, bleeding, unpackaged meat.

[Elamarna]

How much of Pickfords' employment records have survived from the relevant period/depot?

That of course is the issue Sam.
If reasonably intact, one would expect at least one of the names to be present.
However, it appears there were no HR records

Steve

[Elamarna]

so lech hears and or sees paul approaching when theyre about 40 yards apart in bucks row but neither do as they are walking toward bucks row? according to lech his hesitation in bucks row sounds like its only seconds, maybe Thirty seconds or so until he notices paul. how do they not notice each other before then?

Why would they see each other before reaching Bucks Row Abby?
If Lechmere passes the bottom of foster just before or as Paul leaves the house, it's very unlikely to put it mildly they would see each other.
I cover this in some detail in Inside Bucks Row, with distances involved and timings

Steve

[rjpalmer]

How much of Pickfords' employment records have survived from the relevant period/depot?

"I was very kindly invited to visit Pickford's headquarters and have gone through every extant record relating to the 19th century - which is a surprisingly large amount of material. However there are no personnel records."

Ed Stow, 9-23-2012

[Sam Flynn]

No employment records were found that were related to the names of Cross or Lechmere.

How much of Pickfords' employment records have survived from the relevant period/depot?

[Abby Normal]

so lech hears and or sees paul approaching when theyre about 40 yards apart in bucks row but neither do as they are walking toward bucks row? according to lech his hesitation in bucks row sounds like its only seconds, maybe Thirty seconds or so until he notices paul. how do they not notice each other before then?

[FrankO]

Hi John Trent,

The hem would normally come to her ankles. If you pull that up and place it near her chest, then the fold will be mid thigh ish. So to pull down a dress that is exposing up to the thighs one would grab the hem that is near the chest.

Something like that I imagin.

- Jeff

I see you beat me to it, Jeff.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve always taken it that Cross heard Paul approaching and then caught first sight of him at around 40 yards.

[Elamarna]

Lechmere didn't say he saw Paul at 40 yards. He said he heard him at that distance.

While you are correct that he does not say he saw him, you cant really say you hear something at 40 yards. It's about interpretation Fiver, so clearly Lechmere hears footsteps, but to give a distance such as about 40 yards, he must look.

Steve

[Elamarna]

So long story short there is zero evidence Charles Lechmere actually worked for Pickfords????

The man who appears at the inquest lived at 22 Doveton St, the same address that Charles Lechmere lived at.

This man, who gave his name as Cross also worked for Pickfords.

It seems clear that Lechmere and Cross are the same man.

No employment records were found that were related to the names of Cross or Lechmere.

Steve

[Elamarna]

How could Lechmere see Paul approaching 40 yards away; when he and Paul BOTH couldn't see Nichols with mortal cuts and her eyes open from less than 2 yards away?

Unless they were both long-sighted, then that doesn't make sense.


RD

Totally different things RD.

In the dark, it's movement that is often more noticeable, than detail or colour,
Dark shapes can also stand out . Thus how Lechmere sees a shape on the opposite pavement.
It's how eyes work.

So when Lechmere turns he sees movement at about 40 yards. As Paul gets closer it becomes clearer.

But once they get over to the body, further away from the light sources on the northern side of the street( I really do recommend you read the threads on the lighting)
Then the wounds to the neck are not noticeable, they won't reflect any light.

Steve

[FrankO]

Despite everything I read about Paul/Cross examining the body of Nicholls I have yet to understand how, when one or the other of them says that they tried (unsuccessfully) to pull down her skirts, that Paul touched her breast and fancied he felt her take a breath. Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but either the clothing was lifted far above the waist for Paul to get hold even of a hem or there was some other reason for him touching the breast(!). All information appears to show the clothing was no further up than mid-thigh. So why was Paul's hand anywhere near a breast? Could it be that Paul was lying? [Please don't go down Fishy's 'agonal gasp' idiocy in any answers but try and stick to the question. Thanks]

Hi John,

What I think was the case is that the hem was indeed resting on the breast area and that the skirt at the front side was folded halfway between the ankles and the breast area, i.e. around the hips. That way, only the legs were uncovered and from the hips up still covered, although one would be looking at the inside of her lower part of her skirt. I hope you understand what I mean.

All the best,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

Despite everything I read about Paul/Cross examining the body of Nicholls I have yet to understand how, when one or the other of them says that they tried (unsuccessfully) to pull down her skirts, that Paul touched her breast and fancied he felt her take a breath. Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but either the clothing was lifted far above the waist for Paul to get hold even of a hem or there was some other reason for him touching the breast(!). All information appears to show the clothing was no further up than mid-thigh. So why was Paul's hand anywhere near a breast? Could it be that Paul was lying? [Please don't go down Fishy's 'agonal gasp' idiocy in any answers but try and stick to the question. Thanks]

Hi John Trent,

The hem would normally come to her ankles. If you pull that up and place it near her chest, then the fold will be mid thigh ish. So to pull down a dress that is exposing up to the thighs one would grab the hem that is near the chest.

Something like that I imagin.

- Jeff