The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Paddy Goose]

Good afternoon Hurley,

He's better than Van Gogh though.

I beg to disagree. They were both bearded.

[The Baron]

You could at least try and look at this logically. I’ve said numerous times that we cannot categorically prove that Cross wasn’t the killer. The chance exists however tiny. But that’s the case for every suspect apart from a minute few like Dr. Cream, Prince Eddy and Van Gogh to name three. We know that they couldn’t have been the killer. Reason, sense, evidence all experience go toward pointing out how likely it might have been for someone to have been the killer.

In the case of all suspects we have to ask the question - what is it that makes someone think that Cross might have been the killer? (And there’s no point in just saying ‘well, he was there and you can’t prove that he wasn’t the killer,’ because that just isn’t enough to make someone a good suspect. More is needed.

So what is the answer?

I will tell you the answe, so hear me now:


We are not just saying Lechmere was there, we are saying
... do you hear me .... we are saying...



He was SPOTTED standing near a freshly killed woman.


If it is not clear enough I still can make the font bigger.


Has Paul never come that road, we wouldn't know what Lechmere might have done.


Spotted



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

We look at all of the murders, since this was the work of a serial killer. Three witnesses put Chapman's death after Lechmere would have started work. Killing Stride and Eddowes would have required staying up 23+ hours or getting up 3+ hours on his only day off.

But some people prefer the Wizard of Whitechapel Dr. Gandalf Phillips who, by the mere touch of his hand could predict a ToD with a greater level of reliability and accuracy than a Doctor in 2024 can do.

Yes…some adults actually believe that. This is how desperate some are to fit up Cross for the murder. It’s both embarrassing and sad.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I bet you didn't know I am team earlier TOD for this one.



The Baron

Team wrong.

And you only go for an earlier ToD because I go for a later one. If I said that the killer was Kosminski you’d jump to another suspect.

[Herlock Sholmes]

* I am not Geddy.

* Robert Paul was never asked and end never said what distance he saw or heard Lechmere at.

* I never said what you claim I said.

Requires that Robert Paul neither see nor hear Lechmere clean and put away a knife, move from facing west crouched over the body on the south pavement to standing in the middle of the road facing east. Some versions also throw in Lechmere lifting up the body to try to pull the skirts down. If Paul noticed any of this, then Lechmere's story would have been an obvious lie to Paul. By Paul's own testimony, he was initially afraid of Lechmere, which to any killer smarter than a paving stone, would have been interpreted as Paul knows he is the murderer and must be silenced.

Note the word "seeing". Cleaning a knife would require movement of a light colored object to wipe off a reflective object. Movement draws attention. Color contrast draws attention. Reflected light draws attention.

You also ignore the rest of what I said. If Lechmere was the killer he had to move from facing west crouched over the body on the south pavement to standing in the middle of the road facing east without being seen or heard by Paul.

You’re dealing with enough ‘straw man’ stuff to have fed Red Rum for a year Fiver.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So you know that Lechmere was a finder and not a killer because:

you think he was the finder and not the killer..


Great!


The Baron

You could at least try and look at this logically. I’ve said numerous times that we cannot categorically prove that Cross wasn’t the killer. The chance exists however tiny. But that’s the case for every suspect apart from a minute few like Dr. Cream, Prince Eddy and Van Gogh to name three. We know that they couldn’t have been the killer. Reason, sense, evidence all experience go toward pointing out how likely it might have been for someone to have been the killer.

In the case of all suspects we have to ask the question - what is it that makes someone think that Cross might have been the killer? (And there’s no point in just saying ‘well, he was there and you can’t prove that he wasn’t the killer,’ because that just isn’t enough to make someone a good suspect. More is needed.

So what is the answer?

[Geddy2112]

I bet you didn't know I am team earlier TOD for this one.

Even with the earlier ToD at 4am he still would have been at work. For Lechmere to have killed Chapman she would have had to be killed about 3:45am. I've not read any estimates that early.

[The Baron]

Three witnesses put Chapman's death after Lechmere would have started work.

I bet you didn't know I am team earlier TOD for this one.



The Baron

[Fiver]

How do you know that Lechmere is a body finder and not a killer?!

We look at all of the murders, since this was the work of a serial killer. Three witnesses put Chapman's death after Lechmere would have started work. Killing Stride and Eddowes would have required staying up 23+ hours or getting up 3+ hours on his only day off.

[Fiver]

I thought about the eyes wide open bit in PC Neil's testmony... how dark was it? PC Neil used a lantern to discern the face.
Lechmere seemed to prefer that Paul not find that out, but it would hardly sink him if Paul did.

Lechmere certainly seemed to position himself over the upper portion - holding her hand,
compelling Paul to investigate the lower region.

That is not an accurate summary.

"Witness [Paul] felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead." - 18 September 1888 Times.

"He [Paul] put his hand to the woman's breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old." 22 September 1888 East London Advertiser

If anyone was positioned over "the upper portion" it was Robert Paul. He felt Nichols' hands. He felt Nichols' face. He leaned close to try to hear if Nichols was breathing. He touched Nichols' chest.

If I were Paul, I'd be half watching the new guy to my left who I first spotted moments ago, next to the body.

That is not an accurate summary either.

"He [Paul] left home about a quarter to 4 on the Friday morning and as he was passing up Buck's-row he saw a man standing in the middle of the road." - 18 September 1888 Times.

Standing in the middle of the road would put Cross at least 3 or 4 yards away from the body, not right next to it.

And initially, Paul was much more than "half watching the new guy".

"He came a little towards me, but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about. There have been many knocked down and robbed at that spot." Robert Paul, 2 September 1888 Lloyd's Weekly News.

And we know that in spite of being initially on his guard, Paul would conclude there was nothing suspicious about Cross.

[Fiver]

B. You mean Cross's (he didn't use Lechmere) testimony?
Paul didn't see Cross under the lights of the Albion Brewery, so we can infer the minimum distance Cross was ahead of Paul once Paul entered Bath Street. We can also infer the distance Paul was behind Cross, once Cross spotted him. Taking those two things into account, Paul was traveling clearly faster than Cross.

Nothing in Paul's statement tells us anything about whether he was walking slower, faster, or the same pace as Cross.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, there were no lights on the northern side of Albion Brewery. All we know is that the distance from Robert Paul's home to Bath street means that Cross was at least 40 yards ahead of Paul at that point.

[Geddy2112]

The Baron

Is your 'real' name Iain by any chance?

[Fiver]

A lot here Geddy,
I'll just focus on some things -
If you want me to focus on others, just say so.

A. He can't here Cross's footsteps ahead of him over 70 yards, but he hears the sound of Cross's rag wiping against the knife from 70 - 80 yards away?

* I am not Geddy.

* Robert Paul was never asked and end never said what distance he saw or heard Lechmere at.

* I never said what you claim I said.

Requires that Robert Paul neither see nor hear Lechmere clean and put away a knife, move from facing west crouched over the body on the south pavement to standing in the middle of the road facing east. Some versions also throw in Lechmere lifting up the body to try to pull the skirts down. If Paul noticed any of this, then Lechmere's story would have been an obvious lie to Paul. By Paul's own testimony, he was initially afraid of Lechmere, which to any killer smarter than a paving stone, would have been interpreted as Paul knows he is the murderer and must be silenced.

Note the word "seeing". Cleaning a knife would require movement of a light colored object to wipe off a reflective object. Movement draws attention. Color contrast draws attention. Reflected light draws attention.

You also ignore the rest of what I said. If Lechmere was the killer he had to move from facing west crouched over the body on the south pavement to standing in the middle of the road facing east without being seen or heard by Paul.

[Fiver]

Nop, this is the most safe direction, to be seen going towards a murder spot is better than to be seen leaving it.


The Baron

PC Mizen could not have seen Lechmere leaving the murder location - it was several blocks away, around a corner. And Mizen would have no way of knowing there was a murder unless someone told him. To Mizen, Lechmere would have been just a man walking to work.

Immediately turning around when he saw a police officer would have been the most suspicious thing Lechmere could have done short of dancing about waving a bloody knife. Heading any other direction, including towards PC Mizen, would have been less suspicious. But even if Lechmere had panicked on sight of a policeman, going straight back a few blocks to the murder site was a far worse choice than turning north or south on Thomas Street or turning north on Queen Ann Street, or turning south on Court Street, or entering Winthrop Street instead of Bucks Row.

[The Baron]

Baron's scenario requires that the Ripper panic upon seeing a police officer a few blocks away from the crime scene.

If Lechmere was the killer, Paul was approaching down the worst possible route for getting away. It was by far the longest route until a corner could be turned and every step would have taken Lechmere further away from work.

Exactly!!!!

Thats why he waited for Paul and went with him back west.


The Baron