The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Newbie]

Hi RJ,

I'm just seeking some clarification. My understanding is that when Cross and Paul were standing over the body, Neil would have been somewhere in Queen Ann St, or Thomas St, and would have been approaching from the western end of Buck's Row. I am I mistaken?

Cheers, George

Unknown! However, no mention of Queen Anne Street.

The big question is: was Neil moving north up Thomas Street or south down Thomas street when entering Buck's row?

All we have to go by concerning Neil's route and his presence on the go around before encountering Polly Nichols body is:

A. Some comments made by Inspector Spratling in an interview:

- "The beat is a very short one, and quickly walked over would not occupy more than 12 minutes".
- Neil "would have been "within sound" of this place in Buck's-row from time to time during the night - more or less during the whole of the night."
- "Constable Neil was the only one whose duty it was to pass through Buck's-row"

B. The newspaper 'Echo' who claimed that one of their journalists obtained the streets to be covered by PC Neils beat:

• “A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c.”

C. Testimony by Neil at the inquest

- Daily News - 9/3: “Police constable John Neil deposed that on Friday morning at a quarter to four o'clock he was going down Buck's Row, Whitechapel, from Thomas Street to Brady Street, when ....”

- John Neil: I examined the road, but did not see the mark of wheels. The first to arrive on the scene after I had discovered the body were two men who work at a slaughter-house opposite. They said they knew nothing of the affair, and that they had not heard any screams. I had previously seen the men at work. That would be about a quarter-past three, or half-an-hour before I found the body.

- and then Neil makes some mention of being a long White Chapel road at 3:30 am that I'll try to locate again.


There might be a few other nuggets I missed.

[GBinOz]

Those constables were sometimes paid to nock people up, their beats were not set in stone as some here want us to believe just to mock a theory they don't like, and sometimes there were interactions between their beats, in which direction a guilty Lechmere chose to leave is only a guess, he might have noticed someone, panicked turned around, and on his way he could have been able to throw away the knife, what did exactly happen that night is only a guess, but we cannot deny that Nichols was recently killed, and Lechmere was close in time to her meeting her destiny.

The Baron

Police beats were fairly standardised, but with some latitude for the side line of "Knocking Up", or investigating unusual matters, or talking to people on the beat. However, they were not permitted to leave their beat to transgress into the territory of another Division without a very good reason. If Cross just told Mizen there was a woman lying in Buck's Row, Mizen may have considered whether that was in the providence of Neil. Had Cross added that he thought the woman was dead, Mizen would have have had more reason to consider abandoning his beat, but the addition of the statement that another PC wanted assistance would be sufficient reason for Mizen to respond. What then has to be decided is, did Cross say that or, was Mizen saying that Cross said it to validate his leaving his beat.

If Cross was leaving after killing Polly, and had secreted the knife on his person, he would have had no reason to panic upon seeing another person, PC or otherwise. At that stage he was the only person to know that there was a body in the street, and he could have just proceeded to walk to work without being stopped, as a Police Constable would have no reason to suspect a man walking to work of anything but just that. I can't quite see the logic in proposing that Cross would panic and attempt to escape back towards the scene of the crime to go home. If he then ran into Thain would he again about face?

I appreciate that you are canvassing opinion on an alternative - it appears to me the pluses are heavily outnumbered by the minuses.

Cheers, George

[Newbie]

Those constables were sometimes paid to nock people up, their beats were not set in stone as some here want us to believe just to mock a theory they don't like, and sometimes there were interactions between their beats, in which direction a guilty Lechmere chose to leave is only a guess, he might have noticed someone, panicked turned around, and on his way he could have been able to throw away the knife, what did exactly happen that night is only a guess, but we cannot deny that Nichols was recently killed, and Lechmere was close in time to her meeting her destiny.

And Newbie, maybe you have noticed it already but I am not a native English speaker, so please excuse me if I am not always clear.


The Baron

Your English is fine Baron.

My point is that the plan of JtR before slashing the throat would be to flee west on Buck's row before 3:30 am, or to flee east after 3:30 am.
His decision would possibly be based through cluing in on the direction the prostitute had brought him up to the spot, or based on his more complete information on where he thinks the beat cops would be stationed through personal observations.

The prostitutes most probably knew where the beat cops were.

So, if Lechmere was the killer, Paul would have cut off escape route #1.

I imagine dozens of people would brow beat us severely if we suggested Jack the Ripper panicked.

[The Baron]

My point is that the plan of JtR before slashing the throat would be to flee east on Buck's row before 3:30 am, or to flee west after 3:30 am.
His decision would possibly be based through cluing in on the direction the prostitute had brought him up to the spot, or based on his more complete information on where he thinks the beat cops would be stationed through personal observations.

The prostitutes most probably knew where the beat cops were.

So, if Lechmere was the killer, Paul would have cut off escape route #1.

This is one hell of a post, great indeed!!!


The Baron

[The Baron]

And there is this thing that bothers me in Lechmere testimony, he said:

"She looks to me to be either dead or drunk"

"In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon"


This is inconsistency, was he not decided what to say?! but more importantly how would he be able to tell what she looked like if he

Didn't notice her wide open eyes
Didn't notice the cut through her throat
Didn't notice nor feel blood oozing from the wound in her throat
Didn't notice the pool of blood where her neck was lying


Did he just base his opinion on the mere fact that she was lying on the ground?! Didn't he try to test the pulse in her neck?!



The Baron

[Geddy2112]

If you mean thrown it that far from a position right in front of Nichols body, I question whether the train tracks are close enough for that to be possible.

Hi, I thought it was only a mater of feet from the crime scene to the railway tracks. Regardless I personally do not think he threw the knife because I do not personally think he was the killer. This was to fit Baron's alternative theory.

[Geddy2112]

So you would approve Geddy of us using the 3:30 am departure time as a jumping off point, no?

No, correct. His testimony states 'about 3:30am' there is no way we can be certain of the time he left home and Team Lechmere needs to be rather certain to prove the time gap which of course does not exist because we have no accurate timings, walking speeds, accurate routes. Too many unknowns and variables. About 3:30am could be anywhere from 3:25 to 3:35 realistically. We simply can't pinpoint times accurately so unfortunately all your fancy maths is kind of irrelevant. Sorry.

So, Geddy! If Lech left at/around 3:30 am, like you insist, we would expect him to want to make it to Pickford's on time and walk at the rate of 3.48 mph faster then normal .... approaching a brisk rate.

I don't insist, it's his testimony. However for the reasons above it's impossible to tell.

Now, as you can see Geddy, Paul would have been traveling about 0.25 mph slower than Lechmere on his way to work,
and yet, according to Lechmere's testimony, Paul was gaining on Lechmere up Buck's row.

Can you clarify this for me Geddy?

No of course not for the same reasons above. Once you take out accurate times the 'speed = distance ÷ time' things goes pear shaped. We also do not know the accurate distance here either so again I'm sorry but it's a pointless exercise to try and pinpoint times, distances and speeds.

Did Lech stop to take a leak on Buck's row, did he stop to do a butt scratch against some non functioning lantern, did he have cramps slowing him down ......?
Sock it to me!

Again, simply we do not know.

[rjpalmer]

Hi RJ,

I'm just seeking some clarification. My understanding is that when Cross and Paul were standing over the body, Neil would have been somewhere in Queen Ann St, or Thomas St, and would have been approaching from the western end of Buck's Row. I am I mistaken?

Cheers, George

No, as usual you're right, George. I should have said it was PC Thain who entered from the east. Neil would have been somewhere north of the western end of Buck's Row at the time under discussion.

I still have no idea of what constable an earlier Lechmere would have seen to force him back to the scene of the crime. It comes across as pointless and idle speculation that doesn't actually add anything to Ed or Christer's theory. The movements of the constables are accounted for, and no one entered the western end of Buck's Row between about 3:35 and 3:45 and the only reason Mizen strayed into J-Division was because he was alerted by Cross and Paul.

As for Lechmere allegedly tossing the knife...this was not the Epping Forrest where someone could easily stash a knife in the shrubbery. It's a bleak landscape of stone and brick. We know that the railway tracks were specifically walked by J-Division to look for evidence--they said as much. And we know from an account of the Tabram investigation that the Met had enough brains to check drains and drainpipes.

They would have found the knife had there been one.

In my humble opinion.

Cheers.

[Fiver]

Second, if you read my posts here, I am drawing a new scenario in which a guilty Lechmere after killing Nichols and walked away he noticed Mizen or noises, panicked, and got back, so I am here talking about a second passing of Buck's Row not the first one.

Your scenario requires that Lechmere, afraid of Mizen, goes in the worst possible direction, back to the body, when heading any other direction would be better. If he is spotted at any point on his trip eastward, he has been spotted moving away from work, with no possible explanation for doing so. Doing this would be blind, unreasoning panic.

Now lets look at Lechmere's corroborated actions. He approaches Paul, stops him, and draws attention to the body. He accompanies Paul and goes directly to meet and talk to PC Mizen. If Lechmere is the killer, that makes him incredibly calm and collected and utterly unafraid of PC Mizen.

It's Schroedinger's Suspect again - he has to be calm and fearless while he is in a blind panic.

[Fiver]

My problem with Lech first hearing Paul's footsteps when he was in the middle of the street by the body is:

A. If he had moved away from the body and was standing near it in the middle of the road, facing Paul once spotted, then he would need to explain why he was situated there in a manner that would not prejudice him. Towards this end, there is only one story possible which happened to be the one he deposed at the inquest.

B. He would have had to ignore the footsteps marching behind him along Buck's row for up to a minute; according to Lechmere's own testimony, those footsteps would have to be moving faster than he .... not marching in unison.

C. At the point of discovery of the sound, he was focused on visually annalyzing the body. Neural scientists will tell you the brain does not multitask between aural and visual stimuli very well, and that it would be highly unlikely as to this being the point where he suddenly heard footsteps.

A. Requires that Robert Paul neither see nor hear Lechmere clean and put away a knife, move from facing west crouched over the body on the south pavement to standing in the middle of the road facing east. Some versions also throw in Lechmere lifting up the body to try to pull the skirts down. If Paul noticed any of this, then Lechmere's story would have been an obvious lie to Paul. By Paul's own testimony, he was initially afraid of Lechmere, which to any killer smarter than a paving stone, would have been interpreted as Paul knows he is the murderer and mustbe silenced.

B. Lechmere's testimony tells us nothing about whether Paul was walking slower, faster, or the same pace as Lechmere. Based on the distances to their work places, we would expect Lechmere to be walking faster.

C. Science tells us that is exactly the point that Lechmere would start noticing Paul's footsteps.

"On Friday morning he left home about half past three to go to work, and passing through Buck's row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. In the dark he could not tell at first what it was. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but walking to the middle of the road he saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time he heard a man about forty yards away coming up Buck's row in the direction witness had himself come." - Daily News, 4 September 1888.

At the point that Lechmere identified that it was a woman, his visual perception load dropped significantly, which science tells us is exactly when Lechmere would be most likely to become much better at noticing auditory stimuli.

Then there is the well known phenomenon of auditory masking. where loader sounds mask softer ones. According to the Journal of Neuroscience, "neural responses to ... self-generated sounds are attenuated." That means that self-generated sounds receive less focus, making it easier to detect external sound sources, not that they are completely ignored. But "the responsiveness of auditory cortical neurons to external sounds is reduced not only during vocalizations but during a variety of behaviors, including locomotion". So Lechmere walking would reduce his perception of both his own footsteps and to "external sounds", such as Robert Paul's footsteps. People also tend to subconsciously synchronize their steps, likely to improve detection of other sound sources.

So what happened as Lechmere approached the body. He moved from the pavement to the street, changing the sound pattern of his footsteps, making Robert Paul's footsteps more distinct. He probably slowed his pace, which would also make Paul's footsteps more distinct. Auditory mask would drop - the volume of Paul's footsteps would increase as he got closer while the volume of Lechmere's footsteps would decrease as he slowed and stopped. And as noted, by stopping walking, Lechmere auditory responsiveness would increase.

So the science backs Lechmere in multiple ways.

[Fiver]

Unless you are of the crowd that thinks Paul just flat out didn't notice Lechmere walking under the lights of the northern wall
of the Albion Brewery, some 40 yards ahead.


Of course, there is no proof that the lights were turned on at that particularly time, on that particular morning.

This has already been answered.
* There is no evidence that there were lights along the northern wall of Albion Brewery.
* At a distance of 40 yards, Lechmere would have already passed Foster Street before Paul was looking down Foster Street towards the Albion Brewery.

[The Baron]

It's Schroedinger's Suspect again - he has to be calm and fearless while he is in a blind panic.

Nop, if he managed to escape the policeman unnoticed and got rid of the knife there is no more reason for him to be afraid..


The Baron

[The Baron]

Your scenario requires that Lechmere, afraid of Mizen, goes in the worst possible direction

Nop, this is the most safe direction, to be seen going towards a murder spot is better than to be seen leaving it.


The Baron

[Fiver]

This is inconsistency, was he not decided what to say?! but more importantly how would he be able to tell what she looked like if he

Didn't notice her wide open eyes
Didn't notice the cut through her throat
Didn't notice nor feel blood oozing from the wound in her throat
Didn't notice the pool of blood where her neck was lying

Robert Paul didn't notice any of those things, either. And Paul made the more through examination of the body.

"Witness [Paul] felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood."

"While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement."

Did he just base his opinion on the mere fact that she was lying on the ground?! Didn't he try to test the pulse in her neck?!

The opinion was based on his and Robert Paul's checking the body.

"We then both went over to the body. I bent over her head and touched her hand, which was cold. I said, "She is dead." The other man, after he had felt her heart, said, "Yes, she is."" - Charles Lechmere

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is how a debate on Cross should go…


Person One - Is it remotely likely that Charles Cross was the ripper?

Person Two - No.

Person One - Ok, thanks for that. What shall we talk about next.