The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[The Baron]

I'm fine with Lechmere tucking it back into a coat pocket.

I want to look for any possible way that allows Lechmere to get rid of the knife.

I am testing a completely different Lechmere than the fear-free psychopath version of the old testament.



The Baron

[Newbie]

'Chas. Andrew Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over twenty years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck's-row.'

Lechmere's testimony stated he passed through Bucks Row. Now considering he lived East of the crime scene you can safely assume the passing through Bucks Row meant he entered it at the East end and exited via the West end. Otherwise he was going in the completely wrong direction to work.

So you would approve Geddy of us using the 3:30 am departure time as a jumping off point, no?

It took me a bit of time to come up with a satisfactory distance Lechmere would need to walk every morning, from 22 Doveton Street to the Broad street Depot of Pickfords.

I came up with the Pickford's entrance on Livepool street, between Liverpool station and the Broad Street station ( i'll provide a map of the Broad street station below ).

I came up with 1.74 miles from 22 Doveton to Pickford's carman entrances .... if wrong, please let me know.

Lechmere’s start time	Walking rate to arrive at Pickford’s at 4 am ( 1.74 mile walk)	Arrival time at Polly Nichols’ body - 845 yards (assuming no stops & walking at steady rate)
3:20 am	2.62 mph / 1.28 y/s	3:31 am ( 11 min )
3:25 am	2.98 mph / 1.46 y/s	3:34:39 am ( 9 min, 39 s )
3:28 am	3.26 mph / 1.59 y/s	3:36:51 am ( 8 min, 51 s )
3: 30 am	3.48 mph / 1.7 y/s	3:38:07 am ( 8 min, 7 s )
3:32 am	3.73 mph / 1.82 y/s	3:39:44 am ( 7 min, 42 s )
3:34 am	4.02 mph / 1.97 y/s	3:41:09 am ( 7 min, 9 s )

Now, this would be Lechmere time, and Lechmere would attempt to synchronize this time with that of Pickfords,
who themselves would be hooked up to the time schedule of Broad Street station. Railroads being sticklers for accurate times
and being hooked up with Greenwich time.

So, Geddy! If Lech left at/around 3:30 am, like you insist, we would expect him to want to make it to Pickford's on time and walk at the rate of 3.48 mph:
faster then normal .... approaching a brisk rate.

Paul, on the other hand, only needs to go 0.87 miles on his walk to work from 30 Forster street ..... 50 yards down Corbet's court.
(Somewhere I read his work place was 150 yards from 29 Hanbury street )

Paul’s start time (30 forster street)	Walking rate to arrive at Corbett’s court ( 0.87 mile walk)	Arrival time at Polly Nichols’ body 235 yards (assuming no stops & walking at steady rate)
3:36 am	2.175 mph ( 1.06 y/s)	3:39:41 am
3:38 am	2.4 mph (1.17 y/s)	3:41:28 am
3:40 am	2.62 mph (1.25 y/s)	3:43:08 am
3:42 am	2.9 mph (1.38 y/s)	3:44:52 am
3:44 am	3.26 mph (1.59 y/s)	3:46:27 am

Now, Paul thought it was 3:45 am when he turned up Buck's row, and he was 'hurrying' along; that would mean that in his mind he left home at 3:44 am,
and proceeded at a certain pace to get to work. It doesn't matter how accurate this time actually was .... the only important point is that Paul believed it and would have acted accordingly.

Paul's pace to work would have been 3.26 mph.

Now, as you can see Geddy, Paul would have been traveling about 0.25 mph slower than Lechmere on his way to work,
and yet, according to Lechmere's testimony, Paul was gaining on Lechmere up Buck's row.

Can you clarify this for me Geddy?

Did Lech stop to take a leak on Buck's row, did he stop to do a butt scratch against some non functioning lantern, did he have cramps slowing him down ......?

Sock it to me!

[rjpalmer]

It was an example, we know where he was when Lechmere and Paul met him, but 5-10 minutes before?!


The Baron

Why do you have PC Mizen walking PC Neil's beat?

You said Lechmere left Buck's Row until he got spooked by Mizen.

But Mizen is an H-Division constable and is walking a beat (not entirely known) to the west of these immediate streets.

Court Street is part of PC John Neil's beat.

[Newbie]

Good post and I agree, I was just saying that we cannot take the words of Lechmere as facts if he might have been guilty.


The scenario I am suggesting, is simple:

A guilty Lechmere killed Nichols, left the spot and walked west, he noticed Mizen, maybe Mizen was just going out Court street and heading towards Baker's Row, he was calling people out, Lechmere panicked and turned around and walked back, during which he got rid of the Knife somewhere.

And then he encountered Paul and we know the rest.


The Baron

You mean PC Neil, correct Baron? Mizen was on Hanbury street.

[The Baron]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

[Newbie]

Here's a map of the Broad street station.
The Pickford's work place for the Carmen would be to the left off of Liverpool street.
On the other side of the street would be the Liverpool station.

From this website is a description of the layout of the station, with a quick description of Pickfords.

https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/topics/BroadStGds.php

[rjpalmer]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

Neil was approaching Buck's Row from the eastern end.

To spot Mizen, Lechmere would have traveled at least 220 yards to the west and around two corners.

This is why Frank tried to gently tell you that your scenario didn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

[The Baron]

Neil was approaching Buck's Row from the eastern end.

To spot Mizen, Lechmere would have traveled at least 220 yards to the west and around two corners.

This is why Frank tried to gently tell you that your scenario didn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

Neither you nor Frank know the exact location of Mizen 5 to 10 Minutes before Lechmere and Paul met him, and don't repeat to me that he must have been further west, we just don't know.

I put this scenario for feedback, you don't like it, no problem, move on.



The Baron

[rjpalmer]

Neither you nor Frank know the exact location of Mizen 5 to 10 Minutes before Lechmere and Paul met him, and don't repeat to me that he must have been further west, we just don't know.

I put this scenario for feedback, you don't like it, no problem, move on.



The Baron

Not knowing the exact streets of Mizen's beat--because they are imperfectly recorded--- is not the same as saying we don't know that he was not patrolling in J-Division!

He's an H-Division constable who was patrolling to the west of where you thought he would be.


Here's Frank's map of PC John Neil's beat (the yellow lines):



The red mark is where Lechmere and Paul met Mizen at 3:45 am. The bottom point of the green line is the furthest east Mizen would have traveled while walking his beat.

5-10 minutes before 3:45 Mizen would have been even further off to the left of the map.

In your original post, you had Lechmere murdering Nichols, then traveling at least 220 yards to the west. The earliest he could have spotted Mizen is somewhere near the red mark (and even that is doubtful) and at that point there is a junction which would allow Lechmere to travel in three different directions to avoid Mizen rather than to foolishly returning to the scene of the murder. North on Baker's Row; South on Baker's Row; forward onto Old Montague Street.

Further, you have Lechmere traveling a round trip of 440 yards only to meet Mizen again--and yet Mizen has only gotten as far as the corner of Hanbury Street and Baker's Row. He's walked 75-100 yards in the time it would have taken Lechmere to walk 440 plus meet up with Paul.

If I were you, I'd stick with Kozminski.

[The Baron]

Not knowing the exact streets of Mizen's beat--because they are imperfectly recorded--- is not the same as saying we don't know that he was not patrolling in J-Division!

He's an H-Division constable who was patrolling to the west of where you thought he would be.


Here's Frank's map of PC John Neil's beat (the yellow lines):



The red mark is where Lechmere and Paul met Mizen at 3:45 pm. The bottom point of the green line is the furthest east Mizen would have traveled while walking his beat.

5-10 minutes before 3:45 Mizen would have been even further off to the left of the map.

In your original post, you had Lechmere murdering Nichols, then traveling at least 220 yards to the west. The earliest he could have spotted Mizen is somewhere near the red mark (and even that is doubtful) and at that joint there is a junction which would allow Lechmere to travel in three different directions to avoid Mizen rather than to foolishly returning to the scene of the murder.

Further, you have Lechmere traveling a round trip of 440 yards only to meet Mizen again--and yet Mizen has only gotten as far as the corner of Hanbury Street and Baker's Row.

If I were you, I'd stick with Kozminski.

This is your opinion, which is good, so thanks again, you want to make the area between Buck's Row and Backer's Row totally free of anyone at that time frame, no problem, your opinion.

And where did you get the impression that I am looking for an alternative suspect??

If I were you, I would stick to my good old respectful manner.


The Baron

[Newbie]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

That could be Baron.

I was thinking he only figured going in that his escape route was eastward, back to Brady street.
That was the plan and an organized serial killer would have an escape plan going in, no doubt

Did Paul arrive earlier than expected, closing off the escape route and was Lechmere (if the killer) then thrown into confusion?
Maybe, and perhaps that was when Polly Nichols throat was slashed a 2nd time, to make sure.

We'll never know, and of course Annie Chapman's throat was also slashed twice,
but it certainly would give a sound reason why Lechmere, if the killer, would choose to bluff his way out.

Its around the time when he should be arriving on Buck's row,
as Herlock has astutely pointed out previously,

and since Herlock also demands that no one really knows anything about the time back then - its all unreliable,
that statement would certainly stick.

[The Baron]

Those constables were sometimes paid to nock people up, their beats were not set in stone as some here want us to believe just to mock a theory they don't like, and sometimes there were interactions between their beats, in which direction a guilty Lechmere chose to leave is only a guess, he might have noticed someone, panicked turned around, and on his way he could have been able to throw away the knife, what did exactly happen that night is only a guess, but we cannot deny that Nichols was recently killed, and Lechmere was close in time to her meeting her destiny.

And Newbie, maybe you have noticed it already but I am not a native English speaker, so please excuse me if I am not always clear.


The Baron

[Newbie]

Oh!

And btw, Lech should have been scooting faster then Paul down Buck's row to make it to work on time.

But, Paul would need to gain ground on Lechmere quite a bit to support Lechmere's testimony.

Unless you are of the crowd that thinks Paul just flat out didn't notice Lechmere walking under the lights of the northern wall
of the Albion Brewery, some 40 yards ahead.


Of course, there is no proof that the lights were turned on at that particularly time, on that particular morning.

[GBinOz]

Neil was approaching Buck's Row from the eastern end.

Hi RJ,

I'm just seeking some clarification. My understanding is that when Cross and Paul were standing over the body, Neil would have been somewhere in Queen Ann St, or Thomas St, and would have been approaching from the western end of Buck's Row. I am I mistaken?

Cheers, George

[Newbie]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

That could be Baron.

I was thinking he only figured going in that his escape route was westward, back to Brady street.
That was the plan and an organized serial killer would have an escape plan going in, no doubt

Did Paul arrive earlier than expected and was Lechmere (if the killer) then thrown into confusion.
Maybe, that was when Polly Nichols throat was slashed a 2nd time, to make sure.

We'll never know, but it certainly would give a sound reason why Lechmere, if the killer, would choose to bluff his way out.

Its around the time when he should be arriving on Buck's row,

and since Herlock astutely observes that no one really knows anything about the time, that argument would certainly stick.


Was that when Polly Nichols throat was slashed a 2nd time to make sure she was incapacitated?
Or at the beginning, he was unsure of himself ....
the only other victim with two throat slashes was Annie Chapman.