The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

This is twice that we’ve agreed on something PI.

Are you getting worried?

Yes.

But I could easily find something to disagree about.

I am making a monumental effort not to mention a certain Latin word which is five letters long.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes.

But I could easily find something to disagree about.

I am making a monumental effort not to mention a certain Latin word which is five letters long.

I have just got back from the pub so perhaps I can blame the beer but I can’t think what the word is. No doubt I’ll kick myself when you tell me.

[Newbie]

Police also testified it would have been very easy to walk off, reach the main roads, and disappear into the crowds. Police also testified that the nearby slaughterhouse would mean blood on the hands or clothes would not be immediately suspicious. Noticeable, but not suspicious.

5) Lechmere didn't give any name to PC Mizen. Neither did Robert Paul. At the inquest, he said he was Charles Allen Cross, who lived at 22 Doveton Street and had worked for Pickfords at the Broad Street Station, with his shift beginning at 4am. No digging would have been required to find him.

6) Another consideration is that plenty of innocent people wouldn't go to the police. Robert Paul sure didn't, the police had to track him down, haul him out off bed, and drag him off to be questioned. In a high crime neighborhood, deliberately going to the police would risk getting the reputation of being a snitch.

9) Though not up to modern procedures, the police did a lot. The surrounding area was searched for blood stains or other clues. House to house inquiries were made. Witnesses were identified before giving testimony. (PC Mizen IDed Lechmere, Alfred Mulshaw IDed PC Thain), People were interviewed separately to see if their stories matched. (The three slaughterman.) Unknown people who walked by after the murder were sought for questioning. By the Stride murder everyone nearby was being carefully examined for signs of blood on them.

There's also the press. The 30 September Lloyd's Weekly showed they had done followup interviews with Robert Paul, John Richardson, Albert Cadosch, Elizabeth Long, and John Davis. You'd think they would want to interview Lechmere as well. And Lechmere's address was on record. Even if they'd missed it in open court, Lloyds could have gotten 22 Doveton from the court or from the paper that did print his address.

So the press could have easily found Lechmere if they wanted to. And who wouldn't want to interview the first man to find the body? But it appears Charles Lechmere chose not to talk to the press.

Now lets look at the Lechmerian portrayal - a bold risktaker who deliberately sought out Robert Paul, PC Mizen, and the Inquest. A man who ran rings around all of them and outwitted them all. Yet they expect us to believe a man like that wouldn't jump at the chance to talk to the press when they showed up at his door. They expect us to believe that a man like that would wait for the press to find him instead of seeking them out.

It's another part of the theory that makes no sense.

Thanks for your detailed reply to my points. My approach to this is very much along the lines of 'what makes sense', and I've no intention of doing research on it - relying on others (much credit to Christer).

But your point on the police is very strong, especially contrasting Paul with Lechmere in their co-operation. I'd add that making oneself known to them was far more significant then than now, since they had not much other way of finding people - no central records let alone databases, of everyone.

So, as you say, there's the East End taboo AND the fact that any criminal would know that the most idiotic thing to do would be to get in their sights.

A bold risk taker, well the Ripper was certainly that; but he wasn't stupid.

Keeping a low profile would be pretty consistent with a guy who committed the murder but doesn't want to attract attention,
prefering to slink back into the recesses of anonymity.

Of all the newspaper accounts, how many papers printed his address fiver?

No one claims anymore that his purpose in using Cross & not state his address was in trying to hide from authorities, but from wife & neighbors reading about him in the paper.

.

[Fiver]

A bold risk taker, well the Ripper was certainly that; but he wasn't stupid.

Keeping a low profile would be pretty consistent with a guy who committed the murder but doesn't want to attract attention,
prefering to slink back into the recesses of anonymity.

If Lechmere was the Ripper, he took a series of grossly stupid risks. People who take lots of grossly stupid risks don't settle into anonymity for over three decades.

Of all the newspaper accounts, how many papers printed his address fiver?

Why are you asking me when you were replying to Paul Sutton?

No one claims anymore that his purpose in using Cross & not state his address was in trying to hide from authorities, but from wife & neighbors reading about him in the paper..

He publicly identified himself as Charles Allen Cross, a carman for Pickfords for the past couple decades, whose shift began at the Broad Street Station at 4am, and who lived at 22 Doveton Street. Who would ever suspect that might be Thomas Cross' stepson Charles Allen Lechmere, a carman for Pickfords for the past couple decades, whose shift began at the Broad Street Station at 4am, and who lived at 22 Doveton Street?

The idea that he was trying to hide his identity from anyone is laughable.

[The Baron]

Re The cross/lechmere theory

I've asked Fisherman this question before but he had nothing satisfying to offer:

I am ready to give his theory a pass IF it has been shown that Lechmere was able to get rid of the knife before meeting the Policeman.

Fisherman said the area was searched and nothing have been found, but that doesn't bother him, Lechmere carrying the murder weapon on himself while taking to Mizen is not a blow to the theory according to him

Obviously I don't agree, but Fisherman had done a great deal of research and investied a huge effort to build his case against the carman, can anyone suggest to me a possible solution to how he might have been able to get rid of the knife if he were the ripper?!

Now Fisherman if you are reading this, please consider again this bug in the theory and come up with a great solution, this whole Maybrick, Druitt, Bury boring saga makes me reconsider Lechmere, but not until this bug been dealt with.



The Baron

[Lewis C]

Re The cross/lechmere theory

I've asked Fisherman this question before but he had nothing satisfying to offer:

I am ready to give his theory a pass IF it has been shown that Lechmere was able to get rid of the knife before meeting the Policeman.

Fisherman said the area was searched and nothing have been found, but that doesn't bother him, Lechmere carrying the murder weapon on himself while taking to Mizen is not a blow to the theory according to him

Obviously I don't agree, but Fisherman had done a great deal of research and investied a huge effort to build his case against the carman, can anyone suggest to me a possible solution to how he might have been able to get rid of the knife if he were the ripper?!

Now Fisherman if you are reading this, please consider again this bug in the theory and come up with a great solution, this whole Maybrick, Druitt, Bury boring saga makes me reconsider Lechmere, but not until this bug been dealt with.



The Baron

Hi Baron,

I agree that it's unlikely that Cross would have wanted to have the knife on him when he talked to Mizen, but if they searched the area and didn't find a knife, I think that it's even more unlikely that he disposed of a knife.

[Geddy2112]

He very possibly had a genuine reason to carry a knife for his line of work. I read carmen carried them to cut the reins of the horses if required. So he could have wiped the knife and put it back where it belonged and if questioned by the Police he had a genuine reason for carrying one.

The issue for me is not so much the knife it's would a guilty man stop the first passer-by to alert them to their work AND then go and find a PC? I've never read in the history of serial killing that the killer stopped a passer-by then went to alter the fuzz.... I mean really we are stretching the realms of likelihood here.

[The Baron]

Let's try this,

Lechmere killed Nichols, then walked away, he noticed Mizen from afar, he decided to turn back before he notice him, and to get rid of the Knife on his way, then when he reached back Buck's Row he heard Paul coming and stopped in the middle of the street, it would look better for him now to take someone with him when meeting Mizen, and since he got a chance to get rid of the knife in the middle and make sure he got no blood on himself he refused to help her when Paul suggested that.

I think this scenario works better, since it doesn't force a guilty Lechmere stands still, and give him a chance to get rid of the weapon somewhere.


Would that be possible?! And if so, where could he have hidden the knife?!


The Baron

[Lewis C]

Let's try this,

Lechmere killed Nichols, then walked away, he noticed Mizen from afar, he decided to turn back before he notice him, and to get rid of the Knife on his way, then when he reached back Buck's Row he heard Paul coming and stopped in the middle of the street, it would look better for him now to take someone with him when meeting Mizen, and since he got a chance to get rid of the knife in the middle and make sure he got no blood on himself he refused to help her when Paul suggested that.

I think this scenario works better, since it doesn't force a guilty Lechmere stands still, and give him a chance to get rid of the weapon somewhere.


Would that be possible?! And if so, where could he have hidden the knife?!


The Baron

Since they looked for a knife and didn't find one, I think that it's unlikely that he disposed of one. Also, there are 2 versions of the part about whether or not Cross wanted to prop her up. I think the one where Cross did want to prop her up would be the more likely scenario if he were guilty, because then he would have an excuse if he already had blood on him.

[The Baron]

I have read this: "police didn't seem to have searched the drain at Dutfields Yard, which enabled the two dodgy private dicks to find/plant grape stalks"


If there was any drain from Buck's Row to Mizen then my scenario would work, and it is a game changer for the whole Lechmere theory, here we have Lechmere trying to move away from the murder site, before noticing Mizen, not just standing there, and getting rid of the murder weapon.


The Baron

[Fiver]

He very possibly had a genuine reason to carry a knife for his line of work. I read carmen carried them to cut the reins of the horses if required.

Why would a carman ever need to cut the reins?

[The Baron]

Cross did want to prop her up would be the more likely scenario if he were guilty, because then he would have an excuse if he already had blood on him.

In my scenario a guilty Lechmere have already had a chance to clean himself, Lechmere was afraid, he managed to avoid Mizen and got rid of the knife, he met Paul and went with him to check up on the woman, but when Paul thought she might have been still alive/breathing it must have come as a great relieve for Lechmere and he wouldn't have wanted to scare Paul further by moving her and exposing the terrible mutilations, he would have wanted to take him from there quickly and go to talk to Mizen.



The Baron

[Geddy2112]

Why would a carman ever need to cut the reins?

Not got a clue... like I said I'd read it somewhere. They might have needed a knife to cut the packaging or something I do not know. Regardless a guilty Cross stopping a passer by then going for the Police is basically putting his neck in the noose.

[FrankO]

Let's try this,

Lechmere killed Nichols, then walked away, he noticed Mizen from afar, he decided to turn back before he notice him, and to get rid of the Knife on his way, then when he reached back Buck's Row he heard Paul coming and stopped in the middle of the street, it would look better for him now to take someone with him when meeting Mizen, and since he got a chance to get rid of the knife in the middle and make sure he got no blood on himself he refused to help her when Paul suggested that.

I think this scenario works better, since it doesn't force a guilty Lechmere stands still, and give him a chance to get rid of the weapon somewhere.


Would that be possible?! And if so, where could he have hidden the knife?!

Hi Baron,

I'm not going to say it would be impossible, but I do think it would be quite improbable.

The intersection with Baker's Row would be about 220 yards away, so Lechmere would have to have travelled at least a relatively signifigant distance from the body to have been able to spot Mizen. If Mizen wasn't passing Buck's Row then, then Lechmere wouldn't even have been able to see anything of Mizen until he would have turned into Baker's Row.

And then, why would he ever want to turn back to the body having arrived so far away from it? Why not altogether avoid the possibility of walking into Mizen by leaving the area through Court Street or Thomas Street?

And remember, if a guilty Lechmere wanted to get rid of the knife before Paul arrived, he could have done that anywhere. He could even have hid it under Nichols's clothes, in case he needed it to eliminate Paul. As long as he didn't have the knife on his person, the police would never be able to link it to him in the sense of any proof, unless - perhaps - it bore a name or symbol to which he could be linked. Otherwise, he could have dropped it anywhere or have tossed it over any fence he fancied.

The best,
Frank

[The Baron]

Hi Baron,

I'm not going to say it would be impossible, but I do think it would be quite improbable.

The intersection with Baker's Row would be about 220 yards away, so Lechmere would have to have travelled at least a relatively signifigant distance from the body to have been able to spot Mizen. If Mizen wasn't passing Buck's Row then, then Lechmere wouldn't even have been able to see anything of Mizen until he would have turned into Baker's Row.

And then, why would he ever want to turn back to the body having arrived so far away from it? Why not altogether avoid the possibility of walking into Mizen by leaving the area through Court Street or Thomas Street?

And remember, if a guilty Lechmere wanted to get rid of the knife before Paul arrived, he could have done that anywhere. He could even have hid it under Nichols's clothes, in case he needed it to eliminate Paul. As long as he didn't have the knife on his person, the police would never be able to link it to him in the sense of any proof, unless - perhaps - it bore a name or symbol to which he could be linked. Otherwise, he could have dropped it anywhere or have tossed it over any fence he fancied.

The best,
Frank

A great insight Frank, thanks.

Mizen was calling people out, this gives Lechmere a chance to notice him earlier.

He panicked, hesitated to continue that road, if Mizen or anyone else nearby noticed him whether in Backer's Row or Court Street or Thomas Street, he will become the prime suspect after discovering the murder.

He hesitatingly chose to go back the road he just came from since there were no one or policeman and it was very dark there, the road back gives him a chance that other roads don't, and that is if anyone was there in Bock' Row now it will look as if Lechmere has just arrived.

His first priority in plan B is to get rid of the knife, so he threw it in a drain or somewhere on his way.

In my scenario Lechmere is not the psychopath who dosn't have fear and who chooses to stay by the victims, he killed a woman, mutilated her, and tried to withdraw unnoticed from the spot, but when he saw Mizen or heard sounds he had to adjust, all this was not planned beforehand, it was decided on the spur of the moment it involved hesitating, taking steps back, panicking, geting rid of the Knife before talking to the Police, this version is an attempt to counter the bugs of the original theory. And who knows, maybe that is exactly what happened..



The Baron