The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Paul Sutton]

Even worse for the killer to draw attention to himself and be identified as a man at a murder scene so early on in the game, when his priority was surely to remain free to kill again as soon as possible, and not make the mistake of being seen with any future victims.

Love,

Caz
X

Yes, but 'serial killers like taking risks'!

I have it on the authority of both Fred 'Official biographer to the Krays' Dinenage and Professor David Wilson, a 'leading criminologist'.

[caz]

So, as you say, there's the East End taboo AND the fact that any criminal would know that the most idiotic thing to do would be to get in their sights.

Even worse for the killer to draw attention to himself and be identified as a man at a murder scene so early on in the game, when his priority was surely to remain free to kill again as soon as possible, and not make the mistake of being seen with any future victims.

Love,

Caz
X

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

I thought that I’d read that but I wasn’t sure enough to state it as strongly. Can you believe that there are actually adults who think that Cross is a better suspect than Bury?! Mcnaghten’s wife is a better suspect than Cross.

Oh yeah, I forgot, she wasn’t there. Cross was…..that seals it then. Game over.

Hi Herlock

I can believe that there are adults who think Cross is a better suspect than Bury but I think those that do have problems with logical thinking.

Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

I'll add that George Chapman is also not a modern suspect. He was suspected by Abberline.

Indeed, but only in 1903, after Chapman's trial and execution. He wasn't (near)contemporaneously suspected of being JTR.

[Herlock Sholmes]

HI Herlock.

Im pretty sure Bury's wife was a prostitute and also that Bury used other Prostitutes. Bury reportedly had venereal disease that he caught from a Prostitute and gave to Ellen Bury.

Cheers John

Hi John,

I thought that I’d read that but I wasn’t sure enough to state it as strongly. Can you believe that there are actually adults who think that Cross is a better suspect than Bury?! Mcnaghten’s wife is a better suspect than Cross.

Oh yeah, I forgot, she wasn’t there. Cross was…..that seals it then. Game over.

[John Wheat]

Not true of course. Druitt doesn’t require a theory. He was mentioned by Macnaghten in 1894. Opinions of Druitt completely aside, he’s not just a name that people have alighted on in the modern era.

Bury was questioned about the murders……Cross was questioned as a witness but never, as far as we know, as a suspect. And in any tick box exercise Bury would have score higher than other suspects.

Traumatic childhood…..tick
Early criminality……tick
Asult criminality…..tick
Violence……tick
Use of a knife…..tick
Lived locally……tick
Propensity to kill……tick
Explanation for the murders ceasing…..tick
Considered by the police……tick

If I call correctly we might even add half a tick to the ‘connection with prostitutes’ box as I believe it’s suspected that his wife was one.

Not bad for a non suspect?

HI Herlock.

Im pretty sure Bury's wife was a prostitute and also that Bury used other Prostitutes. Bury reportedly had venereal disease that he caught from a Prostitute and gave to Ellen Bury.

Cheers John

[Lewis C]

Not true of course. Druitt doesn’t require a theory. He was mentioned by Macnaghten in 1894. Opinions of Druitt completely aside, he’s not just a name that people have alighted on in the modern era.

Bury was questioned about the murders……Cross was questioned as a witness but never, as far as we know, as a suspect. And in any tick box exercise Bury would have score higher than other suspects.

Traumatic childhood…..tick
Early criminality……tick
Asult criminality…..tick
Violence……tick
Use of a knife…..tick
Lived locally……tick
Propensity to kill……tick
Explanation for the murders ceasing…..tick
Considered by the police……tick

If I call correctly we might even add half a tick to the ‘connection with prostitutes’ box as I believe it’s suspected that his wife was one.

Not bad for a non suspect?

True, and I'll add that George Chapman is also not a modern suspect. He was suspected by Abberline.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The only one of those who is remotely possible is Lechmere.

The rest are not suspects, nor is Lechmere by the way. They have been put together by people theorising 150 years later but there is nothing whatsoever to link them to the crimes.

At least Lechmere was there and is in the witness statements, which isn't much but it's better than the rest.

I reckon there's half a chance that he is mentioned somewhere in the information we have, just an innocuous person to us because we don't know enough about those people giving witness statements.

Not true of course. Druitt doesn’t require a theory. He was mentioned by Macnaghten in 1894. Opinions of Druitt completely aside, he’s not just a name that people have alighted on in the modern era.

Bury was questioned about the murders……Cross was questioned as a witness but never, as far as we know, as a suspect. And in any tick box exercise Bury would have score higher than other suspects.

Traumatic childhood…..tick
Early criminality……tick
Asult criminality…..tick
Violence……tick
Use of a knife…..tick
Lived locally……tick
Propensity to kill……tick
Explanation for the murders ceasing…..tick
Considered by the police……tick

If I call correctly we might even add half a tick to the ‘connection with prostitutes’ box as I believe it’s suspected that his wife was one.

Not bad for a non suspect?

[Indian Harry]

Working poor of the Victorian era didn't need a fitness culture. They got all the exercise that they needed and more from the manual labor they performed. Just the walk to work was 1.7 miles and he would spend much of the day loading and unloading boxes and barrels. Charles Lechmere continued to work as a carman until he was 51 before becoming a grocer.

Thanks to his job, Charles Lechmere would be both fit and gain a good knowledge of the area. I actually think carman is one of the more likely occupations for the Ripper. (But almost everything about Lechmere points towards his innocence.)

I do agree that the Ripper probably walked off from scenes for the same reason you do - running would draw more attention.

My dad worked construction so I have a lot of anecdotal stories of strong, fit middle aged guys being humbled by things like pulling hamstrings playing softball and losing foot races to a young disabled guy with a brain injury. The fitness and strength gained from work doesn't seamlessly translate to things like running. If you haven't run more than a couple of hundred meters in the last 15 years you aren't going to magically hit your stride.

Whether the 70m of head start combined with the additional time required for Robert Paul to assess the situation would be enough to guarantee a clean getaway is anyone's guess. If he yelled and the slaughter workers responded quickly they could have pursued him as a group. They wouldn't have needed to actually catch him... as long as he stayed in their view. They wouldn't have to be quiet about it either. They could be yelling, "Murder, murder" the whole time.

I don't think that Lechmere was the Ripper, but if he was, bluffing was a reasonable response to the situation.

This is my last post on this specific issue because I don't even think Lechmere was the Ripper so this debate is hypothetical and kind of inconsequential to the overall case in my view and I don't need to bring anyone over to my opinion on this very specific scenario.

[Fiver]

If I am not mistaken Charles Lechmere was approaching 40 in 1888. Nowadays some 40 year olds are indeed fit. But the Victorian era wasn't known for its fitness culture, so it isn't a stretch to think that perphaps Lechmere recognized that he didn’t have the stamina to leg it as you say. With that said, I am not convinced that Lechmere was the Ripper.

Whoever the Ripper was I don't think he ran away from any of the scenes. If he did there would have been some witness sightings. I think in order to not draw attention to himself, he calmly walked away from each scene.

Working poor of the Victorian era didn't need a fitness culture. They got all the exercise that they needed and more from the manual labor they performed. Just the walk to work was 1.7 miles and he would spend much of the day loading and unloading boxes and barrels. Charles Lechmere continued to work as a carman until he was 51 before becoming a grocer.

Thanks to his job, Charles Lechmere would be both fit and gain a good knowledge of the area. I actually think carman is one of the more likely occupations for the Ripper. (But almost everything about Lechmere points towards his innocence.)

I do agree that the Ripper probably walked off from scenes for the same reason you do - running would draw more attention.

[Paul Sutton]

My impression was that his horses wheeled his cart. For instance prior to the Ripper murders a kid was killed when they ran into the street into the path of his horses. So his job would be similar to a modern delivery driver. He would do quite a bit of lifting and loading and unloading throughout the day so compared to a modern office worker he certainly does have an active job. This is true of modern delivery drivers as well.

When I was 21 I took up running. By the end of the summer I was able to run 10km. At the beginning of the summer on my first attempt I was winded and stopped after 5 minutes. So maybe that was one kilometer. That was as a 21 year old. So whatever general fitness Lechmere had from his job it would not automatically translate directly to endurance when it came to running.

In a panic as a matter of reflex anyone under 70 with reasonable health could do some degree of running or jogging but unless you are young and fit it's probably not the best strategy to ensure you get away. If you kept your wits about you as a 40 year old you would be better off to play it cool. That's my opinion anyway.

I think horses would do the hauling down streets, but he'd have a lot of lugging around and wheeling of smaller carts, in order to load up. I take your point about running, but how far and fast would he have had to run, to get away in Bucks Row? The Lechmere theory has him at least 70 yards from the approaching Paul when he notices him. And if it was Lechmere, he was pretty speedy in other get aways where no bluffing out was done.

[Indian Harry]

Thanks. I agree on your second paragraph but not about fitness. He had an active job and was probably fit as a fiddle - he wheeled a cart and lugged heavy stuff around, day after day. Also walked everywhere. Levels of health were awful compared to now, especially nutrition, but they were (the non-ill ones) probably more fit then we are now.

My impression was that his horses wheeled his cart. For instance prior to the Ripper murders a kid was killed when they ran into the street into the path of his horses. So his job would be similar to a modern delivery driver. He would do quite a bit of lifting and loading and unloading throughout the day so compared to a modern office worker he certainly does have an active job. This is true of modern delivery drivers as well.

When I was 21 I took up running. By the end of the summer I was able to run 10km. At the beginning of the summer on my first attempt I was winded and stopped after 5 minutes. So maybe that was one kilometer. That was as a 21 year old. So whatever general fitness Lechmere had from his job it would not automatically translate directly to endurance when it came to running.

In a panic as a matter of reflex anyone under 70 with reasonable health could do some degree of running or jogging but unless you are young and fit it's probably not the best strategy to ensure you get away. If you kept your wits about you as a 40 year old you would be better off to play it cool. That's my opinion anyway.

[Paul Sutton]

If I am not mistaken Charles Lechmere was approaching 40 in 1888. Nowadays some 40 year olds are indeed fit. But the Victorian era wasn't known for its fitness culture, so it isn't a stretch to think that perphaps Lechmere recognized that he didn’t have the stamina to leg it as you say. With that said, I am not convinced that Lechmere was the Ripper.

Whoever the Ripper was I don't think he ran away from any of the scenes. If he did there would have been some witness sightings. I think in order to not draw attention to himself, he calmly walked away from each scene.

Thanks. I agree on your second paragraph but not about fitness. He had an active job and was probably fit as a fiddle - he wheeled a cart and lugged heavy stuff around, day after day. Also walked everywhere. Levels of health were awful compared to now, especially nutrition, but they were (the non-ill ones) probably more fit then we are now.

[Indian Harry]

I still think the weakest aspect is the idea of him not legging it! I can't see how he was 'trapped' and had no choice but to brazen it - why?

If I am not mistaken Charles Lechmere was approaching 40 in 1888. Nowadays some 40 year olds are indeed fit. But the Victorian era wasn't known for its fitness culture, so it isn't a stretch to think that perphaps Lechmere recognized that he didn’t have the stamina to leg it as you say. With that said, I am not convinced that Lechmere was the Ripper.

Whoever the Ripper was I don't think he ran away from any of the scenes. If he did there would have been some witness sightings. I think in order to not draw attention to himself, he calmly walked away from each scene.

[Paul Sutton]

I like the phrasing 'least unlikely. I am surprised you put Charles Lechmere that high. I'd put him barely above the impossible (Ostrog, Gull) and the ludicrous (anything involving conspiracies, anagrams, or ley lines).

I favor it being Mr U N Owen.

My least unlikely would be
1) David Cohen
2) George Capel Scudamore Lechmere
3) James Hardiman

U.N. Owen - good use of Agatha Christie!