The Chapman murder and Charles Lechmere

[Lechmere]

Without checking exact dates, Charles Lechmere moved into 22 Doveton Street in 1888, moved out in about 1895 to Sceptre Street, and in about 1898 moved back to 24 Doveton Street, and in about 1901 moved to Carlton Street.
The stability of East Ed life you depict owes more to the first decades of the 20th century.
True Dorset Street was a lot poorer and more unstable than Doveton Street in 1888. But Kelly was a longer term resident there than Charles Lechmere in 1888. Lechmere had been there a couple of months.

Rather than the East End of popular imagination, which is a 20th century memory, you should draw comparisons with Milton Keynes soon after it was built.

[MrBarnett]

G'Day GUT,

(So, not Ramsey Street then.)

Same here. I know the people either side of me and 2 or 3 others in the street. But when my daughter was younger and we lived in a terraced street we knew pretty much everyone. (These were the days before computer gaming, facebook etc when kids actually played with each other.)

And Charles had a houseful of kids. Perhaps the Lechmere orthodoxy has them marching of in single file to school, forbidden to speak to anyone on their way - I don't know. But my guess is they would interact with the neighbours children and that would naturally draw in the parents.

Of course we can't be sure , but we are allowed to make an educated guess.

Cheers,

MrB.

[GUT]

G'Day MrB

I live in a quiet residential street and have done for the last 15 years, I think know three people by name.

My point is we can't jump to the conclusion that people knew him, they may have, they may not.

GUT

[MrBarnett]

G'Day GUT,

If you and your family lived in a run-down apartment block in a dodgy area and a woman in the flat below seemed to have a lot of different male companions and was often drunk, you might well keep your distance, however long she had lived there.

But if you lived in a terraced house and your kids went to the same school as the kids next door and played in the street with them after school the chances are you would know you next door neighbour quite well.

Dorset Street versus Doveton Street in a nutshell (in any decade).

MrB

[GUT]

G'Day MrB

You say

At the lowest level were areas like certain streets in Spitalfields, where common lodging houses abounded and much of the population had no more than an overnight tenure. Their only possessions were what they could carry in their pockets.

The problem, to me, in that is that Mary and Joe lived there for the best part of a year [depending on who you believe as long as Jan to her death] and her neighbors still barely knew her.

GUT

[MrBarnett]

Having been outed as’ folksy’...

I confess that any insights I have into the subject are the result of family research. And my folksy conclusion is that there were broadly three categories of East End neighbourhood:

1. At the lowest level were areas like certain streets in Spitalfields, where common lodging houses abounded and much of the population had no more than an overnight tenure. Their only possessions were what they could carry in their pockets.

2. One level up were the subdivided houses or tenements where individual families would occupy one or more rooms and shared the building with several other families. They would pay a weekly rent to their landlord and would own a limited amount of furniture. When times were hard they were often summarily evicted. But equally often they would themselves choose to do a ‘moonlight flit’ to avoid paying the rent. Even so, such families often lived within a handful of connected streets for several generations.

3. The pinnacle of working class housing was the terraced streets where a family would have sole occupation of a single property. They had a house to furnish (aspidistra included) and couldn’t flit so easily. And although their tenure was only as secure as their employment, they probably wouldn’t have got the property in the first place without a stable work record or similar reference. In many cases families would occupy the same house for a number of years.

Of course, as London is, London was. There weren’t always clear boundaries between these categories. A single street might have a combination of all three. But looking at the census, Doveton Street looks pretty much like 3 throughout, which is probably why uber-respectable Lech. moved their after his long stint in St. George in the East.

MrB.

[MrBarnett]

Ed,

Look at the 1891 census for Doveton Street. Whole houses occupied by single families - these are not Flower and Dean Street lodging Houses where you wouldn't know who was occupying the next bed from one night to the next. That was the point I was making. Nothing to do with leaving the doors unlocked 'cos the neighbours were the 'salt of the earth'. That would be taking folksy a little too far.

By the way, what was the average time Lech. lived in a location throughout his adult life? 10 years or so? Time enough to get to know the neighbours, I would have thought.

MrB

Have I been blackballed from the Lech. club just because I don't get the 'Cross' thing (oh, and Stride)?

[Lechmere]

Mr B
You're n the wrong decade and wrong century for that folksy image.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gents, there is a world of difference between a Spitalfields street full of lodging houses where tenure is secured by payment of a few coppers a night and a 'respectable' street where a family might stay for decades.

Dorset Street and Doveton street bear no comparison.

Regards,

MrB

[GUT]

G'Day Dave

I do occasionally get moments of inspiration just it's rare.

[Cogidubnus]

Doesn't the claim that his neighbors would know him well loose a little steam when we read about Mary Kelly's neighbors.

JULIA VENTURNEY, Didn't know Joe's last name, just that Mary had a man named Joe living with her. Mrs MAXWELL had only spoken to her twice [from memory] but knew her by sight. Her landlord John McCarthy didn't, it seems, know she and Joe weren't married, nor that Joe had moved out. All this in McCarthy's Rents, not much bigger than a decent sized house.

I have to say that's a great observation

All the best

Dave

[Lechmere]

Well spotted that man.
Soon you'll be in team Lechmere, and once you are in, you are in.
Just when I thought I was out, the pull me back in.

[GUT]

G'Day

Doesn't the claim that his neighbors would know him well loose a little steam when we read about Mary Kelly's neighbors.

JULIA VENTURNEY, Didn't know Joe's last name, just that Mary had a man named Joe living with her. Mrs MAXWELL had only spoken to her twice [from memory] but knew her by sight. Her landlord John McCarthy didn't, it seems, know she and Joe weren't married, nor that Joe had moved out. All this in McCarthy's Rents, not much bigger than a decent sized house.

GUT

[Lechmere]

Did Llewellyn, Paul or Mann - to name three - have crowds of curious locals gathering outside their domiciles?

[moonbegger]

I will also point out that there are no other known occurrences in this case where a witness was allowed to call himself something different.

Bucks row witnessed a horrific murder and was subsequently allowed a name change , in order to protect its family's and residents from dealing with those pesky murder tourists .. just saying ! Horses for courses .

moonbegger .