How sure was Paul?

[Kattrup]

I realize it was pitch black in Buck's Row, or nearly so, but Robert Paul didn't describe agonal breathing--which is also called gasping respiration. He didn't describe gasping or labored inhalations from the victim's mouth.

He described a slight movement of the breast or chest--so nearly imperceptible that he wasn't sure it even happened.

Yes, this is also why I am not very convinced - we don't know what Paul's referring to. A slight movement - maybe the body shifting as they examined it, it does not have to be "agonal breathing".

I can't help thinking that something was lost in translation in giving Paul's account to Thiblin.

Well, one can consider Fisherman's phrasing of the question to which Thiblin replied, in that he mentions that Nichols' throat was cut at least half a minute or a minute before Paul examined her and felt some movement. While it's technically not incorrect, since "at least" would cover also the five or ten minutes that had actually passed, it certainly sets up a timeframe that might make agonal breathing seem much more likely.

[Geddy2112]

Ok, that's fine - what I meant was, you quoted a section from someone pointing out that it was ridiculous for the tribunal til reject Thiblin's testimony. So in that sense I just thought it was contradictory and was unsure if you'd read it correctly. But yes, the tribunal did reject his testimony in that specific instance (which was not, as I understand it, a court case or even a criminal case).

Apologies for the confusion. It will have been an employment tribunal case (I believe from my years in Union Rep Land) so will have been in a court, swearing on the bible that type of thing, but correct not a criminal case, however sometimes they follow on from the Employment Tribunals. Again apologies.

[Newbie]

Yes, this is also why I am not very convinced - we don't know what Paul's referring to. A slight movement - maybe the body shifting as they examined it, it does not have to be "agonal breathing".

Well, one can consider Fisherman's phrasing of the question to which Thiblin replied, in that he mentions that Nichols' throat was cut at least half a minute or a minute before Paul examined her and felt some movement. While it's technically not incorrect, since "at least" would cover also the five or ten minutes that had actually passed, it certainly sets up a timeframe that might make agonal breathing seem much more likely.

Clearly, more than a minute if Lech is the killer.

Strangulation & then cutting the throat would be the first things JtR would do: then lower the body down, pull up the clothing & mutilate the torso. That might take two minutes? Then he, like PC ONeil later, hears someone entering Buck's row ... it would take 1 minute for that person to make it up to the murder site, then the interaction between Lech and Paul. That would be a full 3 minutes after the fatal cutting of the throat.

BTW, pulling the clothing back down below the abdomen is covering up the wounds, even though it doesn't go back down to her ankles, out of our sense of Victorian modesty.

No, it doesn't have to be 'agonal breathing'; but if Lech was the killer, that's what you would have.

I agree, basing TOD on blood testimony and on uncertain language about movements (of breath?) is a tough task.

[Newbie]

I realize it was pitch black in Buck's Row, or nearly so, but Robert Paul didn't describe agonal breathing--which is also called gasping respiration. He didn't describe gasping or labored inhalations from the victim's mouth.

He described a slight movement of the breast or chest--so nearly imperceptible that he wasn't sure it even happened.

I can't help thinking that something was lost in translation in giving Paul's account to Thiblin.

First off, it wasn't pitch dark in Buck's Row ..... Lech could make out the recumbent figure to be a female while standing in the middle of the road.

Secondly, one would assume that there are various stages to agonal breathing in a dying person with a slashed throat.
The last stage would not be one of gasping for air .... and with the trachea being put out and the heart stopped, there shouldn't be any labored breathing.

My question is .... how long would it last? My sense is that after 3 minutes, it would be hard to discern.
If one should still expect gasping, well after the heart has stopped and with the loss of all that blood,
then that would be a sore issue for Lechmerites.