All roads lead to Lechmere.

[Fiver]

So, Ally, what you are prepared to accept as established facts is that:

Your list of facts ignores facts that contradict your theory. It also includes facts that contradict your theory, facts that are irrelevant, and claims that are not facts at all. All of which has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

A: Lechmere found the body of Polly Nichols, and…

Fact: Robert Paul did not observe any blood on Charles Lechmere's hands or clothing.

Fact: PC Mizen did not observe any blood on Charles Lechmere's hands or clothing.

B: Lechmere used an alias at the inquest.

Fact: Lechmere used his stepfather's surname at the inquest.

Fact: Lechmere had used his stepfather's surname at a previous inquest in 1876.

Fact: Lechmere gave his middle name at the 1888 inquest.

Fact: Lechmere gave the name of his employer and their address at the 1888 inquest.

Fact: Lechmere gave his home address at the 1888 inquest.

But it is also on record that Charles Lechmere disagreed with the police about what he said on the murder morning.

Fact: Robert Paul disagreed with PC Mizen about what he said to the police on that morning.

Fact: Robert Paul's time estimates disagree with the time estimates of PC Mizen, PC Neil, and PC Thain.

Fact: Charles Lechmere's time estimates agree with the time estimates of PC Mizen, PC Neil, and PC Thain.

The same goes for how Lechmere passed through Bucks Row and Spitalfields every working day morning. Fact.

Fact: Robert Paul passed through Bucks Row every working day morning.

Fact: The police observed other men in the area of Bucks Row on the morning of the murder.

Fact: The police testified that it would have been easy Nichols killer to escape the murder site undetected>

Fact: Hundreds, possibly thousands, of men passed through Spitalfields every working morning.

The same goes for how his mother lived in 1 Mary Ann Street, very close by Berner Street. Fact.

Fact: Hundreds of people lived, or had relatives that lived, or attended clubs, or went to pubs, or walked though the area near the Stride murder.

The same goes for how Stride and Eddowes were both murdered on a Sunday morning. Fact.

Fact: Stride was murdered between 12:45am and 1am.

Fact: Eddowes was murdered between 1:35am and 1:40am.

Fact: For Lechmere to be the killer he would have had get up 3 hours early on his only day off a week or he would have had to stay up for 23 hours straight.

The same goes for how Lechmere refused to help prop Nichols up. Fact.

Fact: Propping up Nichols would have provided an innocent explanation for any blood on Lechmere's hands or clothes.

The same goes for how Paul said that he was sure that he felt a movement in the chest of Nichols as he touched it. Fact.

This if a fact, but it has no possible bearing on Lechmere's guilt or innocence.

The same goes for how Mizen said that the wound in the neck was ”still bleeding” as he observed it. Fact.

Fact: Alice Mackenzie's body bled for 22 minutes after it was found.

The same goes for how Goulston Street lies between Mitre Square and Doveton Street. Fact.

Fact: Ghoulston street lies between Mitre square and over one hundred other streets

The same goes for how the building site of the new church up at London Hospital lies between the Pinchin Stret railway arch and Doveton Street. Fact.

Fact: None of the period police thought the Pinchoin Street Torso was a Ripper victim.

Fact: The Pinchin Street Torso was deposited between 4:55am and 5:25am.

Fact: Charles Lechmere began work at 4am.

Fact: A piece of bloody garment was found a couple blocks to the west a few hours after the Pinchin Street Torso was deposited.

Fact: There is no evidence that the bloody garment piece found the next day in that church building site had anything to do with the Pinchin Street Torso.

Fact: The church construction site lies between the Pinchin Street railway arch and over one hundred other streets.

The same goes for how Chapman, Kelly and Liz Jackson all had their abdominal walls cut away in large panes. Fact.

This if a fact, but it has no possible bearing on Lechmere's guilt or innocence.

The same goes for how the wounds to Nicholsī abdomen were covered up buy her clothing. Fact.

Fact: Robert Paul testified that he pulled down Nichols' dress.

[QUOTE=Fisherman;n797823]So when you say that the only facts there are , are the finding and the name swop, you are wrong. There are heaps of facts that taken together lend themselves quite well to form a cogent theory about Lechmere as the killer. [/quote}

None of these facts support your theory that Charles Lechmere was the Ripper and the Torso Killer.

It is only when I reason that for example the fact that Lechmere disagreed with the police over what was said is likely indicative of guilt that it becomes opining.

You "reason" that Lechmere disagreeing with PC Mizen is evidence of guilt, but you do not apply the same "reasoning" to Robert Paul disagreeing with PC Mizen.

It's hardly the only inconsistency in your reasoning and and far from the first time the inconsistencies in your reasoning have been noted.

[Fiver]

[B]And in the same breath, you are heroically putting a tin helmet on your head and climbing onto the highest horse you can find to do battle on people on account of them entertaining political ideas that you find despicable? /B]

So you are mocking Ally for finding racism and fascism despicable?

[Ally]

Just to derail the incoming, "So now you claim Mizen is a wrong cop" argument, completely ignoring I also said cops can just be wrong or misconstrue, I present this scenario:

Cross: Hey, a policeman's needed in Buck's row, there's a woman lying on the ground, I think she's dead.

Mizen: He said a policeman needed me in Buck's row.


Neither lied. One said a statement, the other slightly misconstrued what he heard, because when he arrived, there was in fact a policeman there.

No actual wrongdoing on Mizen's part, merely a verbal miscommunication which happens no doubt millions of times a day.

[Ally]

A short answer to Ally is all that is needed.

It's cute what Fisherman considers to be a short answer.

Ally once more tries to sweep her being wrong under the carpet in various ways. An example is how Ally, after having been corrected about how Gary Barnett does NOT think the name issue points to Lechmere being a killer, does not choose to say "Okay, so I was wrong". Or "Sorry, I was wrong".

No, Ally doesn't. Fisherman fails to prove her wrong, ergo, the criteria for the admission of wrongdoing weren't met. Kind of like with Lechmere as a candidate. Some guy DECIDING they were a wrong 'un, doesn't make it so, without actual evidence. It's such a difficult concept for these gents to comprehend.

When all the while, the whole problem was always that Ally took an uninformed stance that she could have avoided by reading up. Gary has been tremendeously clear and tremendeously consistent about this throughout, and has left a very long and very clear trail about it.

Nope. He hasn't. But it's good that you keep running his errands for him. Let me guess, he's too embarrassed by his meltdown to come back like an actual grown adult and defend himself?

The problem is, Ally, that you should have been, well, clearer if that was what you meant, because that was NOT what you wrote. You wrote that there are two (2) facts only involved. And you donīt think they mean diddly squat either, remember?

Okay fine. I'll be clearer. In fact, I was. In my last response. But I understand zealotry gets in the way of reason and since you and the brethren appear to be suffering from a surplus of the former and a significant deficit of the latter. I'll be more clear. There are lots of facts in the world. England is a monarchy, the streets were dirty, living was hard for many of those in the East End. All of those are irrelevant to Charles Cross' candidacy as Jack the Ripper. Just like all the facts you laid out are irrelevant to Charles Cross being Jack the Ripper. The only two facts, that could in anyway be used to Charles Cross, and Charles Cross specifically are: He found the body, and he used a family name instead of a legal name.

Have I broken it down enough that even you can take it onboard now? Somehow, I have doubts. Because of course, you didn't answer any of the points raised in any of my post. You never do. I suspect you never will. It's the hallmark of zealots, to answer a question that wasn't asked, when backed into a corner and circle around endlessly and endlessly, convincing only themselves of their unerring righteousness.

Whether or not you like the facts I listed is neither here nor there, they remain facts just the same. And most people with some insight into criminal activities are aware that for example disagreeing with the police is a VERY serious matter.
Not you, though.

ROFLMAO.. My father was a cop, for forty years in one of the worst areas of the country, trust me when I say that cops aren't perfect and they misconstrue and they also lie. So people who think that "disagreeing with a cop" is a serious matter, only think so if they believe cops are always truthful, never wrong, and perfect human beings. In short, the only people who think "disagreeing with the police" is a very serious matter, are morons. Cops are wrong often. Just check many cop's sworn testimony against body camera footage, and then come back and make the argument that nobody should disagree with a cop's version of events. You guys are legitimately living in your own really idiotic world.

Lastly, you seem to say that yours is a noble cause and you are a true heroine (more or less) while I am "defending the name of a bigot". Wrong again.

This is in fact EXACTLY What you are doing, otherwise you'd call him Butler, like you call Cross, Lechmere. I mean, you know what his legal name is. You know what he goes by socially isn't his actual name, and yet, you afford a racist more respect than you afford an innocent witness to a crime.

What I am defending is the right to argue the Lechmere case without people trying to infer that one of the other proponents political background would somehow lessen the value of said theory.

No, you are defending your boy and have done so, repeatedly and complimented him too. I'd throw up in my mouth before I knowingly complimented a Nazi. I guess you guys would be fine with Andy Spallek being allowed on the boards too, wouldn't you? Because of course, the only thing that matters is the research. Not basic morality.

But it's fine. You think research in an unimportant historical event is more important than ethics. Everybody has to come down on one side or the other on that one. It's good to know where you and Gary stand.

As Gary Barnett pointed out in an earlier post: We now know who you are.

If you only NOW know who I am, this just proves how very poor researchers you are. It's not like I've hidden it, at all. Unlike you know... your boy Butler.

And now I can give it a new try to leave this very sad exchange. Wish me luck.

Well, the good news is the world is a big wide open place, and you can go off with the rest of the Brethren and create your own little "safe space" where you guys won't be challenged by facts and dissenting opinions or get called out on your lack of morality. I hear safe spaces are all the rage these days.

[Harry D]

Why are we assuming the killer continued eastwards after Goulston Street? If the killer had made a beeline in this direction, the apron rag would've been found sooner, but according to the beat cops it wasn't there. How do we know the killer didn't duck into a hideout near Goulston Street before he reappeared to deposit the apron/graffito and headed in a different direction?

Assuming of course he did carry on east, there's a wide radius of houses in that direction. Lechmere's just happens to be one of them.

[Aethelwulf]

Anyways, it is no as if we can say that the correlation between Mitre Square, the rag in Goulston Street, and Doveton Street is not there.

We can say it (i.e. the correlation) isn't there because correlation implies some statistical analysis has taken place and produced a statistically significant result. That is not the case. The word you want is coincidence. Coincidence, nothing more, and not a very sinister one, I wouldn't even give it an off white flag.

[Fisherman]

I'm at a loss to understand how this is relevant to Lechmere, unless you're arguing that he killed Eddowes and fled the scene as the crow flies. But if you look at a line drawn (roughly) between Mitre Square, the Goulston Street Graffito and Doveton Street, it cuts through many buildings and streets, which may not have any significance to Lechmere's address.

The police will very likely have pondered the location of the rag as being potentially indicative of the direction in which the killer fled, Scott. And that direction is in line with Lechmere being their man.
The fact that another rag was found on the exact route between the Pinchin Street railway arch and Doveton Street does nothing to dissolve the possibility that the Goulston Street rag was a genuine clue. Once we look at the rags in combination with each other, the argument is not a bad one at all.

Of course, we all have different takes on the degree to which the many facts I listed to Ally lend themselves to pointing a finger at Lechmere. Some of them are weaker, some stronger indications, and not all will rank them the same way in this respect.

The important thing to remember is that we should never isolate them and try and dismiss them one by one, becasue that exercise is far too simple. We must look at them all in combination and ask ourselves whether or not an innocent man is likely to amass such a mountain of pointers to guilt. And that is where Scobie becomes very succinct when he chooses not to say "He must have been guilty", but instead "a jury would not like him".

Anyways, it is no as if we can say that the correlation between Mitre Square, the rag in Goulston Street, and Doveton Street is not there. It IS a fact, and since Ally claimed that there were two facts only involved in the Lechmere case, it belonged to the correction that needed to be made.

[Fisherman]

A short answer to Ally is all that is needed.

Ally once more tries to sweep her being wrong under the carpet in various ways. An example is how Ally, after having been corrected about how Gary Barnett does NOT think the name issue points to Lechmere being a killer, does not choose to say "Okay, so I was wrong". Or "Sorry, I was wrong".

No, she instead writes that Gary should have argued "more consistently" that he thinks that Lechmere was trying to protect the family name! When all the while, the whole problem was always that Ally took an uninformed stance that she could have avoided by reading up. Gary has been tremendeously clear and tremendeously consistent about this throughout, and has left a very long and very clear trail about it. There is post after post about it on these very boards. The post of his that Ally quoted has already been shown to be quite in line with that argument, and does not say in any shape or form that Gary thinks that Lechmere hid his real name on account of being the killer. I am perfactly happy to show how that works again, if need be.

Ally also writes "And... none of those facts mean diddly squat" about the many facts I added to what she herself claimed were the ONLY two facts in the accusation act against Lechmere.

The problem is, Ally, that you should have been, well, clearer if that was what you meant, because that was NOT what you wrote. You wrote that there are two (2) facts only involved. And you donīt think they mean diddly squat either, remember?
Whether or not you like the facts I listed is neither here nor there, they remain facts just the same. And most people with some insight into criminal activities are aware that for example disagreeing with the police is a VERY serious matter.
Not you, though.

Lastly, you seem to say that yours is a noble cause and you are a true heroine (more or less) while I am "defending the name of a bigot". Wrong again.

What I am defending is the right to argue the Lechmere case without people trying to infer that one of the other proponents political background would somehow lessen the value of said theory.

So you are wrong on every score, like it or not.

As Gary Barnett pointed out in an earlier post: We now know who you are.

And now I can give it a new try to leave this very sad exchange. Wish me luck.

[FISHY1118]

Lechmere kills Nichols , gives his statement to the police at an offical inquest , goes on to to kill 4 more women, stops killing after Kelly [ive made comment before on how a man could do what he did to that women and stop and live a pretty much normal existence, Really ?] lives he life for another 32 years, has 12 kids, no Police officials suspect him at the time, never even think to check his alibi on other kill nights, his wife never comes forward to say he wasnt with me or he was with me on the murder nights . But somehow people have this guys as their JtR ? . Into the very very , unlikly basket with you Mr Charles Lechmere. IMO

[paul g]

It can’t be Paul he didn’t use a different name at the inquest.
But possibly just possibly the murders occurred on his route to work, his mother lived near by.

[Ally]

When I wrote my original post I was going to take each one of Fisherman's "facts" and spoof apply them to Paul, but then I realized I'd actually have to do research to fit him in on some of the more stupid and random one's like "Lechmere's mother lived near a murder site" and the one above Scott Nelson pointed out. I mean obviously that "line evidence" is such a ridiculous stretch, I can't even comprehend it as being a serious proffer, but I was going to have fun with these:

The same goes for how Lechmere refused to help prop Nichols up. Fact.

Exactly! Paul is clearly the killer, who had circled around and back when he heard Lechmere coming and then wanted to see if Lechmere recognized him or had seen anything, and also an alibi as to why he had blood on his clothes, how CLEVER that Lechmere didn't fall for this ruse!

The same goes for how Paul said that he was sure that he felt a movement in the chest of Nichols as he touched it. Fact.

Here we have confirmed evidence of Paul being a complete lech, (not Lechmere) because what was he doing feeling up the tits of an unconscious woman? Pervert!

Apologies, to Mr. Paul, obviously I do not mean this, I just wanted to provide evidence of how literally everything in that list was just ridiculously stupid and could easily apply to framing Paul.

I mean it was clearly Paul who wanted to insist she was alive, and went off without including Lechmere, do we even know if he would have alerted the police if Lechmere hadn't followed him?

Paul did it I tell you. Not enough scrutiny has been given to him.

[Scott Nelson]

[B]
The same goes for how Goulston Street lies between Mitre Square and Doveton Street. Fact.

I'm at a loss to understand how this is relevant to Lechmere, unless you're arguing that he killed Eddowes and fled the scene as the crow flies. But if you look at a line drawn (roughly) between Mitre Square, the Goulston Street Graffito and Doveton Street, it cuts through many buildings and streets, which may not have any significance to Lechmere's address.

[Ally]

Sorry, Fiver, but you are going to have to digest another post by my hand. Blame it on Ally, who missed a golden opportunity not to respond to my last post.

So when you said: " Regardless of the outcome, I have had my say and will not make any further posts on the matter." was that you thinking you had the intestinal fortitude to walk away and remain strong in your dignity, and you've now realized, you lack will power, or what? No of course not, it's MY fault you're breaking your word, because how dare I respond to you when you bring me up over and over in your post. Totally my fault that you've come crawling back, not any character defect of your own.

You love me don't you?

The premise here is of course completely false. Nobody has claimed that people using false names are not guilty of any wrongdoing, quite the contrary. And again, as I pointed out before, there can be benevolent and malevolent reasons for using an alternative name.

Absolutely right. Other than this direct quote to which I was responding:

And there’s nothing sinister about using a ‘false’ name is there?

Sure of course not, when people make a querying statement like that, they're just you know... being rhetorical, not making a declarative of any kind.

Actually, no, we do not have to prove that Charles Lechmere was a criminal to have a point when we are saying that a man who suddenly uses an alias at an inquest where he testifies as a person who was found alone with the freshly killed victim may be a big warning flag.

And in census records, and in other inquest testimony that had nothing to do with the case at all, when he used the name in several instances, and it seems likely was known at work by that name, not really much of a warning flag, definitely not a big one. Not even a Lilliputian one.

Yes, exactly - he does not have to be implying anything nefarious at all. I told you before that Gary Barnett has always been saying that his take on things is that the likeliest explanation for why Lechmere used the Cross alias was that he was trying to protect the family name.

Then he should argue that consistently and not let his actual bias slip through on several occasions and show what he really thinks. And there are several occasions, where he argues in a manner that makes it clear, like in that post.

Now, try the sentence on again, this time with my addition:

That he didn’t suggests to me he was hiding something - most likely his family name.

It's so cute how your little pack keep running in to explain what others meant. No, I won't add your addition, because that's not what Gary said. And who are you to put words in his mouth. If he wants to clarify his intentions, why's he sending an errand boy like you to do it for him. He's a grown up. He can choose to clear up his words. Why in the world would anyone take your explanation as to what a grown living man MEANT? This isn't Psychic Medium. He ain't dead. If he wants to clarify his meaning, he can do it. Why are you here, carrying his water?

You said in point two that you wanted to see something indicating that Lechmere was a part of the criminal world before you would be willing to accept that the name change was likely to indicate foul play.

What happened to those standards here? Suddenly, you are willing to promote your own take on how Gary Barnett would have said or believed that the name issue points to guilt, although there are years and years of evidence out on the boards about his true take - he does not deny that the name change can have been linked to guilt (as indeed nobody CAN deny), but he very clearly favours the suggestion that the one act of hiding Lechmere would have engaged in was one of hiding the Lechmere name being tarnished.

What is this gibberish. I didn't promote my own take. I took his words, and put them up there. Yeah. I admit, Gary likes to weasel around. But every once in a while, he makes a statement that lets you know where he stands. Even if it is on constantly shifting ground. But you started off that ...rant? By saying I wanted to see something indicating Lechmere was a criminal, and then utterly failed to provide anything. Instead you go off on that ... butt Smooch of your boy.

This was a mistake you could have avoided by reading up. Simple as that!

Now, you have a golden opportunity to say ”Okay, so I was wrong”, but somehow, I cannot see that coming any time soon.

Er... I've said I was wrong numerous times, when proven wrong. Like with the Swanson Marginalia, like with many other avenues of exploration turn out to not be the correct path through out time in memorial. I have no problems saying I'm wrong. It's not a character failing, which is something you boys might want to take on board. At some point in your life before you calcify into rigid pomposity.

Did I miss the part where you actually offered proof about his criminality, since this was supposed to be the great gotcha moment where you prove me wrong? Because I feel like I missed it.

I am a great fan of Muhammad Ali. I think he really was the greatest. AND a muslim. I fail to see how and why muslims have anything at all to do with this matter. I gladly admit that there are those I find mentally deranged and unfit to plead, but I myself find they come from all countries and religions.

Of course you fail to see what Edward Butler aka Ed Stow, your home boy Supreme, has to do with Muslims. I mean the fact that he swans around England campaigning against them, and acting no different than a thug is a distinction that completely escapes you, because it doesn't AFFECT YOU. There are muslims who read this board and they shouldn't have to see a terrorist of Butler's stature upheld as being ANYTHING worth associating with. I don't care what derelict piece of minutia he drags from the dustbins of history, it doesn't make up for the fact that he's repugnant, and people who he has made a lifetime ACTIVELY working to disenfranchise shouldn't have to see him lauded and applauded for anything. You guys keep saying "politics" shouldn't matter, that politics are irrelevant. No, you only think they are irrelevant because he's not hate campaigning against you. If he were, you'd have a far different take. This isn't about "politics". This isn't about whether the Monarchy should exist or should not. This is about a repugnant little dirt clod of a man going around and campaigning under the sole aim of disenfranchising anyone who isn't white and right. It's not about politics.

5. "No, I'm saying Lechmere is a bad suspect AND Butler is a bad person. The two are both true, but for mutually disparate reasons. However, when Butler argues something, his cognitive function should be used in determining how likely it is he's capable of forming a cogent theory. And the answer is: Not likely."

This kind of wording really should not feature on any kind of discussion forum, for obvious reasons. Edward Stow is a highly intelligent person and a very good researcher. Many more people than myself agree on that matter.

LOL, and that's really the problem isn't it? You only think racists and bigots are a problem if they are a problem for you. I know Ed Butler (see how you keep calling him Stow when you know that's not his legal name but don't extend the same courtesy to Charles Cross...interesting isn't it?) is not intelligent. You know this by how he's devoted his time effort and energy in life. It's interesting how people attach such importance to relatively inconsequential things and make it their whole identity isn't it. Gary, in his spectacular meltdown accused me of being a "part-timer", ....like it's an insult I haven't made Jack the Ripper studies my entire focus and goal in life (something which, let's be clear, I wear as a badge of honor. If Jack the Ripper is your entire world, you need to get out in the fresh air more). But what Ed has devoted his life to is one area of relatively little importance, and one area of great harm. This is not the actions of an intelligent man.

However, if you are to argue that somebodies cognitive functions are not fit to form a cogent theory, then you should not do so about somebody where hundreds and thousands of people (from all sorts of religions) actually agree that the theory is not only cogent, but also the one really good theory that has ever been presented.

Millions of people believing in something doesn't indicate anything in terms of what they believe in being accurate. For instance only one of those religions can be right. The number of people who believe in something is absolutely distinct from whether it is true. But it is interesting that you, and your boys, find "faith" in the false idea of numbers. That explains the pack mentality. If everybody tells you exactly what you want to hear, it must be true. Let's just ignore the millions who think differently, they're infidels, they aren't true believers. Y'all are a legit trip.

6. ”

So, Ally, what you are prepared to accept as established facts is that:

A: Lechmere found the body of Polly Nichols, and…

B: Lechmere used an alias at the inquest.

Why is it that you are prepared to accept these matters as facts? Because we have them on record and they cannot be denied?

Yes, exactly. Facts... things that are objectively true.

So, the one thing that establishes these matters as facts is that they are on record, right?

But it is also on record that Charles Lechmere disagreed with the police about what he said on the murder morning.

Yes, this is a fact. It's also a fact that Paul didn't corroborate Mizen's take.

The same goes for how Lechmere passed through Bucks Row and Spitalfields every working day morning. Fact.

..
The same goes for how the wounds to Nicholsī abdomen were covered up buy her clothing. Fact.

And... none of those facts mean diddly squat. Oh my god, he lived in the area, where people were getting killed and walked to work? HANG HIM

Just because something is a fact, doesn't mean it's relevant. "He wore an apron" Fact. Clearly it was to cover up the bloodstains... wildly ridiculous speculation that means absolutely nothing, unless you've already determined his guilt.

His use of a false name only matters as evidence of guilt, AFTER you know he's guilty. There are a couple of billion people walking around using "fake" names, from actors, to authors, to nicknames, to people with blended family scenarios, to everyone on this board. Pretty much completely irrelevant, as a fact in terms of guilt. But I allow it, because it MIGHT mean something. But of course, most probably doesn't.

So when you say that the only facts there are , are the finding and the name swop, you are wrong. There are heaps of facts that taken together lend themselves quite well to form a cogent theory about Lechmere as the killer.

Literally not a single fact that you listed taken together add up to anything, unless you want it to. Every single fact against Cross, is innocuous.

And the thing is, Ally, that it is the exact same for the finding of the body and the name swop - it takes opining before they become part of a theory suggesting guilt. These two matters that you falsely isolate as the only facts there are, are instead only a small part of the total amount of facts forming the theory.

I don't falsely isolate them. They are the only facts that can be speculated on with any degree of rationality if one wants to determine his guilt. All the rest are irrelevant, and show absolutely nothing about the man in terms of HIS guilt or not. They are irrelevant details.

And there goes that misconception. Again. You are not the first person I have explained this to. But you ARE the first person that has suggested that cognitive dysfunction is part of why somebody would think that the Lechmere theory is a bad one.

It's interesting how you continuously equate Stow's actions, words and deeds with the Lechmere theory as a whole. Almost like you cannot separate one of your brethren from your Faith. Like an attack on one of you is an attack on all. Pack mentality? Witness it in action folks. Because indeed Fish, the only cognitive function in relation to a person comments I have made is how should one treat the ravings of one who is cognitively deficient -- Butler. And I have to say I do find it fascinating that you and the Brethren really can't seem to separate an attack on HIM from an attack on your entire ideology. Has he Svengali'd you? Do y'all gather around and light candles and invoke his name?

Your problem is that you yourself have woefully failed to understand the many elements involved. That is not something I would put on my CV if I applied for a job at the cop shop.

That one was... especially funny. Thanks.

And in the same breath, you are heroically putting a tin helmet on your head and climbing onto the highest horse you can find to do battle on people on account of them entertaining political ideas that you find despicable? Saving the world, cleansing it from those bastards, as it were…?

Mirror. Use a mirror. And try not to laugh.

Yep see the difference is, I'm actually willing to fight a battle without making pronouncements like "DO WITH ME WHAT YOU WILL! I AM NOBLE". Yeah, I'll get on my high horse and ride to fight against bigots and their bullshit. You get on yours and ride to defend the name of a bigot. Being willing to climb on a horse and ride into battle isn't what makes you a poser. It's all the posing while sitting on your pony, tilting at windmills, that's what does it.


Edit: PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT I HAVE EDITED MY POST AFTER FINDING OUT A SLANG WORD IN THE UK HAS VASTLY DIFFERENT MEANINGS THAN HOW MY CIRCLE USES IT OVER HERE. The problems of a common but completely different language. I used a word that apparently over there would be a great insult and also, not accurate as far as my knowledge, that was not my intention, and I have deleted it.

[Darryl Kenyon]

[B]

The same goes for how the wounds to Nicholsī abdomen were covered up buy her clothing. Fact.

I have mentioned to you a few times Fish that the neck wounds were almost certainly not covered ., again - PC Neil - I examined the body by the aid of my lamp, and noticed blood oozing from a wound in the throat.
Yet you keep banging on about how Lech tried hiding his handiwork by covering the wounds to poor Polly's abdomen. Yet this master of covering his tracks leaves the severe wounds [ Dr Llewellyn ], to poor Polly's throat uncovered. Not only that but Lech allows Paul to touch Polly's face without trying to distract him, thus giving Paul every chance of noticing the cuts. That just does not make sense if he tried hiding the fact that he killed Polly.

Regards Darryl

[Fisherman]

Sorry, Fiver, but you are going to have to digest another post by my hand. Blame it on Ally, who missed a golden opportunity not to respond to my last post.

So lets break her new post down and comment and correct as we go along!

1. ”No, that was not what Ally argued. What Ally argued is that if Lechmere-adherents are going to argue that Lechmere is defacto guilty of a crime because he used a name that he was legally entitled to use, then they cannot turn around and claim that other people using false names are not guilty of any wrongdoing.”

The premise here is of course completely false. Nobody has claimed that people using false names are not guilty of any wrongdoing, quite the contrary. And again, as I pointed out before, there can be benevolent and malevolent reasons for using an alternative name.

The conflict Ally tries to point to does therefore not exist.

2. ”And this would matter if there had been anything indicating Charles Cross/Lechmere was a part of the criminal world, which ten years of research have failed to prove.”

Actually, no, we do not have to prove that Charles Lechmere was a criminal to have a point when we are saying that a man who suddenly uses an alias at an inquest where he testifies as a person who was found alone with the freshly killed victim may be a big warning flag.

You may notice that I used the word ”may” here. We will return to it shortly.

3. ”Ah, okay. So when he writes this:

Originally posted by MrBarnettView Post

I just can’t accept that it did not occur to him that the name Lechmere was the one he should have used when he was sworn in. And if it was the case that he was generally known as Cross (which seems highly unlikely) then he should have mentioned both names. That he didn’t suggests to me he was hiding something.

...He wasn't in fact implying that it was nefarious that Lechmere used Cross. 'K. When you are arguing on a thread about a suspects candidacy and you come down on the side of his use of a name he was legally entitled to use is somehow indicative of deception, you are defacto throwing in with the idea that what he was hiding, was his murdering nature. He even says in that post that he didn't think he was trying to hide from his neighbors, so what was he hiding then?”

Yes, exactly - he does not have to be implying anything nefarious at all. I told you before that Gary Barnett has always been saying that his take on things is that the likeliest explanation for why Lechmere used the Cross alias was that he was trying to protect the family name.

Now, try the sentence on again, this time with my addition:

That he didn’t suggests to me he was hiding something - most likely his family name.

You said in point two that you wanted to see something indicating that Lechmere was a part of the criminal world before you would be willing to accept that the name change was likely to indicate foul play.

What happened to those standards here? Suddenly, you are willing to promote your own take on how Gary Barnett would have said or believed that the name issue points to guilt, although there are years and years of evidence out on the boards about his true take - he does not deny that the name change can have been linked to guilt (as indeed nobody CAN deny), but he very clearly favours the suggestion that the one act of hiding Lechmere would have engaged in was one of hiding the Lechmere name being tarnished.

This was a mistake you could have avoided by reading up. Simple as that!

Now, you have a golden opportunity to say ”Okay, so I was wrong”, but somehow, I cannot see that coming any time soon.

4. ”What it has a bearing on is how much credence one should give to a person who has proven to be intellectually barren. How do you treat a nutty zealot with any kind of respect in terms of reasoning. I am quite sure that if someone of a Islamic faith was out in the world screaming burn the infidel, you and Gary, and Butler would all be using it as proof of their mental unfitness. The same thing applies here.”

I am a great fan of Muhammad Ali. I think he really was the greatest. AND a muslim. I fail to see how and why muslims have anything at all to do with this matter. I gladly admit that there are those I find mentally deranged and unfit to plead, but I myself find they come from all countries and religions.

And I cannot for the life of me see how it has got anything at all to do with the Lechmere theory. It was around before Edward looked into it, and I would not brandish either Michael Connor nor Derek Osborn as either intellectually barren or infidels. The exact same applies to Edward Stow, Gary Barnett and any other person who think that Charles Lechmere is a good suspect. If you check the internet, you will see that they come in large hoards nowadays. Which religion they ascribe to, I do not know, however.

5. "No, I'm saying Lechmere is a bad suspect AND Butler is a bad person. The two are both true, but for mutually disparate reasons. However, when Butler argues something, his cognitive function should be used in determining how likely it is he's capable of forming a cogent theory. And the answer is: Not likely."

This kind of wording really should not feature on any kind of discussion forum, for obvious reasons. Edward Stow is a highly intelligent person and a very good researcher. Many more people than myself agree on that matter.

Of course, that does not make it true per se; many crowds have been wrong about many things.

However, if you are to argue that somebodies cognitive functions are not fit to form a cogent theory, then you should not do so about somebody where hundreds and thousands of people (from all sorts of religions) actually agree that the theory is not only cogent, but also the one really good theory that has ever been presented.

I said in my former post that it was never a good idea to suggest that politics should rule whether or not a theory is viable or not. I stand by that. The mere idea is asinine. Regardless of whatever crusade we feel like embarking on.

6. ”LOL... no, those facts are literally the only facts. The rest is conjecture, speculation and attempt to fit belief into the frame. I read your thread. I read all you had to say. It was not convincing. "Once again, I've been asked to lay out the evidence against...." and then you laid out a lot of speculation that isn't verified and isn't based on anything but what you want to believe.

That's not fact. That's opining. Different animals.”

So, Ally, what you are prepared to accept as established facts is that:

A: Lechmere found the body of Polly Nichols, and…

B: Lechmere used an alias at the inquest.

Why is it that you are prepared to accept these matters as facts? Because we have them on record and they cannot be denied?

Or is it because you consider them damning, that you think they imply guilt?

Nah, of course you don’t. You think that Lechmere was innocent.

So, the one thing that establishes these matters as facts is that they are on record, right?

But it is also on record that Charles Lechmere disagreed with the police about what he said on the murder morning.

That does not per se mean that he must be guilty. But it IS on record. It is therefore the exact same thing as the suggested finding of the body and the name swop - it is on record. All three matters are possible indicators of guilt. Similarly, none of the three must point to guilt.

But they are all established facts. None of them are opining.

The same goes for how Lechmere passed through Bucks Row and Spitalfields every working day morning. Fact.

The same goes for how his mother lived in 1 Mary Ann Street, very close by Berner Street. Fact.

The same goes for how Stride and Eddowes were both murdered on a Sunday morning. Fact.

The same goes for how Lechmere refused to help prop Nichols up. Fact.

The same goes for how Paul said that he was sure that he felt a movement in the chest of Nichols as he touched it. Fact.

The same goes for how Mizen said that the wound in the neck was ”still bleeding” as he observed it. Fact.

The same goes for how Goulston Street lies between Mitre Square and Doveton Street. Fact.

The same goes for how the building site of the new church up at London Hospital lies between the Pinchin Stret railway arch and Doveton Street. Fact.

The same goes for how Chapman, Kelly and Liz Jackson all had their abdominal walls cut away in large panes. Fact.

The same goes for how the wounds to Nicholsī abdomen were covered up buy her clothing. Fact.

So when you say that the only facts there are , are the finding and the name swop, you are wrong. There are heaps of facts that taken together lend themselves quite well to form a cogent theory about Lechmere as the killer.

It is only when I reason that for example the fact that Lechmere disagreed with the police over what was said is likely indicative of guilt that it becomes opining. And opining is what every theory is about, so it should not depress you too much, one would think. It is where we return, as promised to the ”may”. Lechmere may well have been the killer, and personally, I have little doubt that he was.

And the thing is, Ally, that it is the exact same for the finding of the body and the name swop - it takes opining before they become part of a theory suggesting guilt. These two matters that you falsely isolate as the only facts there are, are instead only a small part of the total amount of facts forming the theory.

And there goes that misconception. Again. You are not the first person I have explained this to. But you ARE the first person that has suggested that cognitive dysfunction is part of why somebody would think that the Lechmere theory is a bad one.

Your problem is that you yourself have woefully failed to understand the many elements involved. That is not something I would put on my CV if I applied for a job at the cop shop.

7. "LOL, you children are so adorable with your proud stances of "If this earns me a ban, so be it. I am a martyr for my cause!" You wish. Even ol Gary hasn't been banned, it's beyond hubris to think you matter that much.

But you know, everyone loves a good "I die, for the good of my cause!" speech. Make sure you clutch your chest and grimace in the appropriate heroic pose."

This is quite interesting. You are mocking me for being a poser, wanting to clutch my chest and take heroic poses.

And in the same breath, you are heroically putting a tin helmet on your head and climbing onto the highest horse you can find to do battle on people on account of them entertaining political ideas that you find despicable? Saving the world, cleansing it from those bastards, as it were…?

Mirror. Use a mirror. And try not to laugh.