Evidence of innocence

[Fiver]

He didn't give his Lechmere name....

He said he was Charles Allen Cross of 22 Doveton Street, a carman who had worked for Pickfords for a couple decades and whose shift started at the Broad Street Station at 4am. Who would ever suspect that might be Thomas Cross' stepson, Charles Allen Lechmere of 22 Doveton Street, a carman who had worked for Pickfords for a couple decades and whose shift started at the Broad Street Station at 4am?

...he didn't dress up for the inquest....

Ah, the oft repeated myth about people wearing their Sunday best for the inquest.

Now lets try looking at the East London Observer, which provided a lot of description compared to the other newspapers.

"Before the coroner sat the woman who had identified the deceased as Martha Turner, with a baby in her arms, and accompanied by another woman - evidently her mother - dressed in an old, brown figured pompadour." - Tabram Inquest

"The first witness called was a Mrs. Elizabeth Mahoney - a young woman of some 25 or 26 years, plainly clad in a rusty-black dress, with a black woollen shawl pinned round her shoulders." - Tabram Inquest

"Alfred George Crow was the next witness. In appearance, he was a young man of about twenty-three or four, with closely cropped hair, and a beardless, but intelligent face, and wore a shabby green overcoat." - Tabram Inquest

"Mary Ann Connolly, otherwise known as "Pearly Poll", was next introduced, wearing simply an old green shawl and no hat, her face being reddened and soddened by drink." - Tabram Inquest

"Amelia Palmer, the next witness, a pale dark-haired woman, who was poorly clad, said: I live at 35, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, a common lodging-house." - Chapman Inquest

"The next witness was James Cable, a man from Shadwell. A youngish-looking man, with a bullet head and closely cropped hair, and a sandy close-cut moustache; he wore a long overcoat that had once been green, and into the pockets of which he persistently stuck his hands." - Chapman Inquest

"Her evidence was not very material, and she was soon replaced by John Richardson, a tall, stout man, with a very pale face - the result, doubtless, of the early hours he keeps as a market porter - a brown moustache, and dark brown hair. He was shabbily dressed in a ragged coat, and dark brown trousers." - Chapman Inquest

"Piser wore a dark overcoat, brown trousers, and a brown and very battered hat, and appeared somewhat splay-footed - at all events, he stood before the Coroner with his feet meeting at the heels, and then diverging almost at right angles." - Chapman Inquest

Charles Allen Cross was the height of sartorial splendor compared to a lot of witnesses.

...and possibly tried to hide his address....

An oft-repeated lie is still a lie. Charles Allen Cross could have requested to not give his address in open court. He publicly gave his address of 22 Doveton Street at the inquest.

...those things taken together can point to a Lechmere who didn't want to draw people attention, something a serial killer would certainly need to avoid, but doesn't mean of course he must have ben one.

If he wanted to avoid attention:
* He would have walked off into the darkness when he heard Robert Paul approaching.
* He wouldn't have tried to stop Robert Paul.
* When Paul tried to avoid him, Cross would have let Paul keep walking.
* He would have split up from Paul before encountering a police constable.
* He would have hung back and let Paul do all talking to PC Mizen.
* He wouldn't have come forward to give evidence.
* He would have said he heard another man in front of him shortly before he found the body.

[Fiver]

Eeeek, I guess its because they tagged it as non-fiction

Lemmino is non-fiction. He covers the case and does not assume who the Ripper is. And he's getting a lot more views than the Missing Evidence "documentary".

[John Wheat]

Lechmere is a complete non starter as a suspect. There is zero evidence whatsoever that he murdered anyone. The quest to frame the innocent Lechmere is both tiresome and annoying. It is also in bad taste. Im pretty sure I've said this before but its all worth repeating.

[Geddy2112]

Lemmino is non-fiction. He covers the case and does not assume who the Ripper is. And he's getting a lot more views than the Missing Evidence "documentary".

Apologies I meant the Missing Evidence was tagged non-fiction but I was being rather sarcastic as it appears economical with the truth on occasions...

[The Baron]

ive seen so much ink spilled trying to refute the blood flow argument and its such a weak counter argument. with the anti lechers conveniently leaving out the fact that she had also been gashed down the middle and paul thought he detected breathing. face it. polly nichols was either killed by lechmere or mere seconds/minutes beforehand. clearly putting him in the frame for her murder.

Agree. Lechmere was spotted at a time that was extremely close to the woman death, he must have been lucky.


There is no other suspect for the murder of Mary Nichols, so he will stay.



The Baron

[Fiver]

Agree. Lechmere was spotted at a time that was extremely close to the woman death, he must have been lucky.


There is no other suspect for the murder of Mary Nichols, so he will stay.



The Baron

There are plenty of other suspects for the murder of Polly Nichols. And if bodies bled out as fast as Christer claims, then PC Neil is the most likely killer.

PC Thain saw a couple men on Brady Street shortly before he was alerted by PC Neil. Robert Paul, PC John Neil, Walter Purkiss, Patrick Mulshaw, James Green, Sergeant Henry Kirby, Mr Perkins, the watchman at Schnieder's factory, the watchman at the wool depot, and the watchman at Essex Wharf were all nearby at the time of Polly Nichols' murder and none have a known alibi.

[Herlock Sholmes]

While The Baron’s latest tactic for avoiding responding to current points is to only respond to posts by someone who cannot respond at the moment due to a ban then it’s worth pointing out some further examples of desperation.

Lechmere was spotted at a time that was extremely close to the woman death, he must have been lucky.

Really? In a quiet, straight, poorly-lit East End backstreet at around 3.40am our cunning killer allows Robert Paul to interrupt him in the act? ‘Lucky’ isn’t the adjective that I’d use. ‘Stupid’ comes easier to mind. If we just for a second put ourselves in that position can any of us imagine getting caught in the act? How the hell could it have happened? That a killer would remain in situ when he hears/sees a man approach in the distant gloom would have to attract the adjective ‘stupid’, although I’d have to add ‘staggeringly’ or ‘remarkably’, to give it full value.

Cross can be exonerated on this point alone.

. There is no other suspect for the murder of Mary Nichols, so he will stay

Here we get what I’ve christened Fisherman’s ‘Phantom Killer Fallacy,’ which states “ if you cannot put a name to someone then they are, at best, unlikely to have existed.”

Repeated here by Christer’s new pal The Baron it means that someone killing Nichols and fleeing (as a real killer would have done) before Cross arrived couldn’t really have happened because we can’t put a name to that person.

Cross though has the evidential weight of a name.

I’m just surprised that Conan Doyle missed out on the opportunity of assigning that bit of deductive genius to you-know-who

[Geddy2112]

There are plenty of other suspects for the murder of Polly Nichols. And if bodies bled out as fast as Christer claims, then PC Neil is the most likely killer.

Very true, and was it a case that the report on Stride indicated a much longer 'bleeding' time that Christer was hoping for, thus contradicting his blood evidence?

[Geddy2112]

I’m just surprised that Conan Doyle missed out on the opportunity of assigning that bit of deductive genius to you-know-who

Amazing isn't it. I'm also sick to death of the Pro-Lechmere fans (not Christer or Ed) saying in Lechmere's guilt 'well who is your suspect.' Basically meaning I can't argue against Lechmere because I do not have a preferred suspect of my own. That is the logic we are dealing with here.

[Sunny Delight]

Charles Cross is not the Whitechapel murderer and I think to any serious student of the case he must be totally exonerated based on what we know. Almost every facet of the 'evidence' against him is easily explained or is based on so many assumptions as to be meaningless.

I imagine the true killers name is within the Police files(probably long lost now), likely spoken to a few times and like the Yorkshire Ripper likely someone who slipped through the net. Cross was not that guy. An innocent witness who had the misfortune to find one of the murdrrers victims.

[Duran duren]

Amazing isn't it. I'm also sick to death of the Pro-Lechmere fans (not Christer or Ed) saying in Lechmere's guilt 'well who is your suspect.' Basically meaning I can't argue against Lechmere because I do not have a preferred suspect of my own. That is the logic we are dealing with here.

I don't have a suspect either and I see no logic with Cross as one.

Speaking of Doyle, while he may not have written a SH story on JtR, their are several pastiches on this subject. Have any read any of these and if so, any favorites? Mine would be "Moriarty" by Gardner which deals with the mystery briefly.

[Fiver]

Very true, and was it a case that the report on Stride indicated a much longer 'bleeding' time that Christer was hoping for, thus contradicting his blood evidence?

Alice McKenzie

12:45 A.M.: It begins to rain in Whitechapel.

12:50 A.M.: Andrews returns to Castle Alley on his regular beat, about twenty-seven minutes having passed since he left the area. This time, however, he discovers the body of a woman lying on the pavement, her head angled toward the curb and her feet toward the wall. Blood flowed from two stabs in the left side of her neck and her skirts had been lifted, revealing blood across her abdomen, which had been mutilated.

The pavement beneath the body of Alice McKenzie was still dry, placing her death sometime after 12:25 A.M. and before 12:45 A.M., when it began to rain. In her possession were found a clay pipe often referred to as a 'nose warmer' and a bronze farthing. She was noticed to have been wearing some 'odd stockings.'

P.C. Andrews heard someone approaching the alley soon after, and ordered the man (Lewis Jacobs) to stay with the body while he went to fetch help.

1:10 A.M.: Inspector Edmund Reid arrives only moments before Dr. George Bagster Phillips. Reid notices that blood continues to flow from the throat into the gutter (about 1:09 A.M.) but it begins to clot upon the arrival of Phillips (about 1:12 A.M.)

[Geddy2112]

1:10 A.M.: Inspector Edmund Reid arrives only moments before Dr. George Bagster Phillips. Reid notices that blood continues to flow from the throat into the gutter (about 1:09 A.M.) but it begins to clot upon the arrival of Phillips (about 1:12 A.M.)[/I]

Oh dear, another one struck off the list of guilt...

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't have a suspect either and I see no logic with Cross as one.

Speaking of Doyle, while he may not have written a SH story on JtR, their are several pastiches on this subject. Have any read any of these and if so, any favorites? Mine would be "Moriarty" by Gardner which deals with the mystery briefly.

Hi DD, as you’d expect numerous have been written of varying standards. I’ve read quite a few but some where quite a while ago.

A Study In Terror by Ellery Queen and Murder By Decree by Robert Weverka are well known and have been made into movies which you’ve probably seen.

The Last Sherlock Holmes Story by Michael Dibdin is another well known one. I hate the ending though (you might guess who turns out to have been the ripper when you look at the title?)

Probably the best recent one imo is Dust And Shadow by Lindsay Faye.

Edward Hanna’s The Whitechapel Horror comes to mind as does the Mycroft Memorandum by Ray Walsh OI have it somewhere but I can’t remember its content.)

David Stuart Davies wrote The Ripper Legacy but if I remember correctly I don’t think that it’s actually specifically a Holmes v the ripper novel, there’s just some kind of link.

And finally one that I’ve had recommended to me as ‘enjoyable, well-written but with a few faults in the use of modernisms and Americanisms.’ - Sherlock Holmes and the Unmasking of the Whitechapel Horror by Frank Emerson.

Plenty of great pastiches out there DD.

[The Baron]

Yet - if Lechmere was JtR - it worked!! He concealed his real name for over a hundred years - and didn't get caught!

Very true

And he managed to get out of the murder spot with a company not rising any sort of suspicions for over a hundred years too!

Fascinating!



The Baron