Evidence of innocence

[SuperShodan]

You continue to shape events to suit by trying to mould unknowns into knowns. This tactic is glaringly obvious Bob. It’s time that it was dropped.

Incorrect. I’m taking the witness and the coroner at their word. I’m not changing an iota. I don’t have to.

You on the other hand are changing both a key witness statement and the the time the coroner says the body was found.

Person A changes zero.

Person B changes 2 inconvenient data points.



Who is shaping events. A or B ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

So if somebody asks me "When did you wake up this morning" and I answer "I donīt know, but it cannot have been far off six o clock", then the one certainty that can be had is that I could not have awoken by six o clock?

Thanks for straightening that out.

PS. Baxter could not say that it was 3.45 since he could not be certain that it was not instead 3.44 or 3.46. Both times, by the way, that are not far off 3.45.

And if I’d said “not far off 6.00” it would easily include both 5.55 and 6.05 and all points in between. And I can say that Fish because I’m not trying to make an estimate into a known.

[rjpalmer]

Yes, why shouldn’t Mrs Long have heard chimes from half a mile away and recognised them as being those of the Albion brewery (as she was coincidentally in close proximity to the Truman’s brewery whose clock maybe didn’t chime)?

Maybe the Albion clock had chimes and the Black Eagle one didn’t, maybe they were loud enough to be heard in Spitalfields and maybe Mrs Long was familiar with them.

There’s a lot of maybes there - I’m guessing RJ didn’t get the memo.

Thanks for taking my suggestion and running with it, Gary.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment of your post---except for the last gratuitous and unnecessary jab, of course.

If what you say is true, it was fully possible that Long and Paul heard the same chime and thus made the same mistake.

And this would explain why they both appear to have been about 5-7 minutes off in their timing.

Of course, it would be good to prove which of the clocks chimed, but at least we have a working hypothesis. I do enjoy these group efforts.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What R J wrote was that Long and Paul could have been led wrong by the same clock. I see no realistic possibility for that. That was what my post was about.

1) Why couldn’t Paul have heard that particular clock?
2) Why couldn’t that clock have been wrong?
3) Why couldn’t he have seen or heard a different clock?
4) Why couldn’t that clock have been wrong?

[MrBarnett]

True enough; I was speculating based on the later clock, so I do appreciate that you posted a contemporary image that shows a smaller and lower clock in the same position, facing Whitechapel Road.

Excellent.

I assume that most Breweries are going to place their clocks facing the main flow of traffic, as a sort of advertisement as well as service to the public. I don't think a business is going to care too much about the view afforded to the poor schmucks living in the back streets behind the factory.



Odd? Nothing odd about it. I already showed the massive complex in the original post, #5086.

The point of the enlargement was to show Paul's route, which would have only taken him past only one small corner of the complex. I made the image large enough to read the walls as described as 14' high.

At 3:35-3:40 a.m., what clock was he going to see?

Any clock on any structure within the complex that was higher than 14ft and facing in a direction that enabled him to see it. Judging by one of the Images I posted, the exact date of which I don’t know, the 14ft walls were dwarfed by many of the brewery buildings.

[Fisherman]

Thanks Fish
As you know, I also think they were probably by the same hand, and have thought so for some time. can you provide any links/ info etc to point me in the right direction where I can read some of his stuff on the two series being linked?

I am not a hundred per cent sure, but I think the book you are looking for could be "Mr Atherston leaves the stage", which involves Whittington-Egan commenting on the torso murders. I have not read it myself, but I read a text - and I cannot remember where, sadly - where it was stated that Whittington-Egan was of the meaning that there was one killer only, and I think this book was the source.

Sorry I canīt be more specific.

[Fisherman]

1) Why couldn’t Paul have heard that particular clock?
2) Why couldn’t that clock have been wrong?
3) Why couldn’t he have seen or heard a different clock?
4) Why couldn’t that clock have been wrong?

The clock was very far removed from where Paul was, and there would have been other clocks much closer. But of course, one can always play the "why could there not have been a phantom killer"-game. But you know what I think of it.

[Abby Normal]

I am not a hundred per cent sure, but I think the book you are looking for could be "Mr Atherston leaves the stage", which involves Whittington-Egan commenting on the torso murders. I have not read it myself, but I read a text - and I cannot remember where, sadly - where it was stated that Whittington-Egan was of the meaning that there was one killer only, and I think this book was the source.

Sorry I canīt be more specific.

thanks fish ill take a look

[MrBarnett]

Thanks for taking my suggestion and running with it, Gary.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment of your post---except for the last gratuitous and unnecessary jab, of course.

If what you say is true, it was fully possible that Long and Paul heard the same chime and thus made the same mistake.

And this would explain why they both appear to have been about 5-7 minutes off in their timing.

Of course, it would be good to prove which of the clocks chimed, but at least we have a working hypothesis. I do enjoy these group efforts.

I’m an acknowledged fantasist, RJ.

[Fisherman]

I need a break now, so Iīm off for some time. But, as Schwarzenegger said ....

[rjpalmer]

Any clock on any structure within the complex that was higher than 14ft and facing in a direction that enabled him to see it. Judging by one of the Images I posted, the exact date of which I don’t know, the 14ft walls were dwarfed by many of the brewery buildings.

That's not necessarily true. If one is walking alongside a 14' wall and one is 5' 3" tall, the upward angle is such that he won't be able to see nearby tall buildings. Unless they were really tall.

Was there a tall illuminated clocktower that Paul could see while walking down Forster Street at 3:35 a.m?

I don't think so, but if someone could produce an image of it, this conversation would make actual progress instead of going over the same dull ground.

I think I'll call it a day on that note.

[Trevor Marriott]

I have two forensic pathologists saying that she would be likely to bleed out in 3.5 minutes, so I have a lot more than you seem to think. But hey, maybe you should contact them? And if they refuse to speak to you, then you can lead on that it is because they were disgusted by my misrepresenting them!

But wait. Payne James correspondence with me makes that impossible.

Bugger. At least I tried to help out.

and I have an expert who has gone to great lenghts to negate that view by saying there is no definitive answer as to how long a body would take to bleed out which I am motre inclined to belive that an expert who gives a definitive specific time.

Without you reliant on your experts times your theory is blown out of the water, so it is not wrong to suggest she was killed between 3.15am-3.45am or even earlier than that.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Aethelwulf]

I am not a hundred per cent sure, but I think the book you are looking for could be "Mr Atherston leaves the stage", which involves Whittington-Egan commenting on the torso murders. I have not read it myself, but I read a text - and I cannot remember where, sadly - where it was stated that Whittington-Egan was of the meaning that there was one killer only, and I think this book was the source.

Sorry I canīt be more specific.

From what I can see Whittington-Egan is just another enthusiast - he doesn't appear to have worked on any actual cases involving tracking down a serial killer. I put more faith in people who might actually know what they are talking about. I can see you have written a book and all that, but has any of that actually been subject to any sort of peer review by people who know what they are talking about?

I set you a challenge for this year if you are so confident in your case - write and submit an article to a leading journal about your Lech torso theory. As you don't rate the Keppel paper why don't you try for the same journal (Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling). I have done this a dozen times (nothing related to crime) and they are all published and I can tell you it is difficult. Your work will be blind peer reviewed and critiqued in some detail. You will then have to come up with satisfactory edits and replies to get it published. It will take the best part of a year. I look forward to reading your work.

On a side note, this whole 'flaps' similarity business is a non starter for me. If someone plonked a torso down in front of you and said remove the internal organs I can imagine cutting away flaps is an entire logical way to go about it. It is not diagnostic enough - anyone could have done the same. Even if they were related, show me one shred of evidence that indicates Lech committed any of these crimes. Oh hang on, he walked past the sites in his magic triangle...

[MrBarnett]

From what I can see Whittington-Egan is just another enthusiast - he doesn't appear to have worked on any actual cases involving tracking down a serial killer. I put more faith in people who might actually know what they are talking about. I can see you have written a book and all that, but has any of that actually been subject to any sort of peer review by people who know what they are talking about?

I set you a challenge for this year if you are so confident in your case - write and submit an article to a leading journal about your Lech torso theory. As you don't rate the Keppel paper why don't you try for the same journal (Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling). I have done this a dozen times (nothing related to crime) and they are all published and I can tell you it is difficult. Your work will be blind peer reviewed and critiqued in some detail. You will then have to come up with satisfactory edits and replies to get it published. It will take the best part of a year. I look forward to reading your work.

On a side note, this whole 'flaps' similarity business is a non starter for me. If someone plonked a torso down in front of you and said remove the internal organs I can imagine cutting away flaps is an entire logical way to go about it. It is not diagnostic enough - anyone could have done the same. Even if they were related, show me one shred of evidence that indicates Lech committed any of these crimes. Oh hang on, he walked past the sites in his magic triangle...

If you have such a low opinion of ‘enthusiasts’, why are you wasting your time here?

[Mark J D]

If you have such a low opinion of ‘enthusiasts’, why are you wasting your time here?

Indeed. But what jumps out at me is the line about 'tracking down a serial killer': over and over again, we see serial killers getting caught completely by accident, not because some high-functioning battalion of state-funded super-sleuths has tracked them down in a tense game of cat and mouse... Think of Nilsen, who was only caught because he'd blocked his drains with rotting flesh... And, if you care to, think of Lechmere, whose temporary move from Doveton Street seems to have had something to do with the drains... Just sayin'...

M.