Evidence of innocence

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=MrBarnett;n778471]

He may have missed it. But it was his job to keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary on his beat, so on that basis you’d imagine he’d be more likely to spot something like that than a workman on his way to work.

And of course Trevor might be right about him possibly not having passed along Buck’s Row at 3.15. That bloody cape raises a few questions.

Certainly true Gary.

[MrBarnett]

This probably should be on another thread, but has the mystery of the two men (civilians) who were present in Buck’s Row ever been solved? Tomkins claimed they were there when he arrived, Neil claimed that two slaughterman were the first civilians on the scene. Baxter suggested Tomkins may have read about the two men rather than actually seen them, to which Tomkins replied that he couldn’t read.

[GBinOz]

Just a small point George but would the police have known Paul’s place of work when they went to his house? I can’t recall. I only mention it because maybe the early visit was just to catch him before he’d left for work?

Hi Herlock,

I don't know. I've exhausted my knowledge on the subject. I would speculate that Cross would have given police a clue as to where Paul worked, but then one would think that they would wait for him at the entrance to Corbett's court. I don't have a reference for the raid so the report may be apocryphal.

Cheer, George

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;n778457]

Just a query but do we know which side of Bucks Row Neil passed along on his route? You can probably guess where I’m going on this point.

There is no indictaion but I have already previoulsy suggested that even if he did pass by the spot at 3.15am he could have missed the body taking it for a piece of tarpaulin as Lechmere initally did

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=MrBarnett;n778464]

Trevor,

It was Thain’s cape that was left at the slaughterhouse, ‘by a brother officer’, he insisted, because he wasn’t allowed to deviate from his beat. And it was Thain who went to the slaughterhouse around 4.15 to retrieve the cape - after he’d fetched Llewelyn. That’s when the knackers were informed of the murder.

Gary

But it is reported that the cape had been left there by a fellow officer during the day and he had gone to collect it. why leave it till that time of the morning to collect it

As I have previoulsy stated why would he give his cape to another officer and why would he then go out on night duty without his cape if he knew where it was then he woud have gone and collected it either before he went on duty or as soon as he came on duty. Neils evidence cannot be treated as reliable and that effects the likely TOD which would toatlly rule out Lechmere

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;n778463]

Yeah that’s what I was wondering Gary. We would also have to ask why he missed it the first time but not the next of course but these things can happen. Its a point that we can’t make without evidence though of course.

Hi Herlock,
From the inquest:
John Neil, police-constable, 97J, said: Yesterday morning I was proceeding down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, going towards Brady-street. There was not a soul about. I had been round there half an hour previously, and I saw no one then. I was on the right-hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street.

Not definitive I know. Would he have used the same side of the street at 3:15? Who knows? Paul Begg wrote that Sgt Kirby was also in Bucks Row at 3:15 and saw nothing unusual.

Cheers,
George

[MrBarnett]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;n778480]

But it is reported that the cape had been left there by a fellow officer during the day and he had gone to collect it. why leave it till that time of the morning to collect it

As I have previoulsy stated why would he give his cape to another officer and why would he then go out on night duty without his cape if he knew where it was then he woud have gone and collected it either before he went on duty or as soon as he came on duty. Neils evidence cannot be treated as reliable and that effects the likely TOD which would toatlly rule out Lechmere

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But why are you talking about Thain’s cape in the same breath as Neil? Unless you suspect Neil was the ‘brother officer’ in question.

Was it said the cape was deposited at the yard during the day?

[Mark J D]

Eddowes was killed on a Sunday morning when, it is suggested, Lechmere wasn’t at work.

Good luck with that, Gary.

Meanwhile, here is a graphic showing the relation of the Stride and Eddowes murder sites to Lechmere's range of possible routes to work at Broad Street (Eldon Street approach) prior to his move out to Doveton Street. The Abby/Norris 'work - home - family' triangle for the period of the murders is also indicated.



M.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=MrBarnett;n778484]

But why are you talking about Thain’s cape in the same breath as Neil? Unless you suspect Neil was the ‘brother officer’ in question.

Was it said the cape was deposited at the yard during the day?

My mistake, you are right it was Thains cape but that still doesnt explain how it got to be left behind and cleary shows that policemen did not just casually pass by the gates and look in from the street without going inside as Neil suggests

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[SuperShodan]

Good luck with that, Gary.

Meanwhile, here is a graphic showing the relation of the Stride and Eddowes murder sites to Lechmere's range of possible routes to work at Broad Street prior to his move out to Doveton Street. The Abby/Norris 'work - home - family' triangle is also indicated.



M.

Wow ! That’s a great pic Mark.

[Abby Normal]

Good luck with that, Gary.

Meanwhile, here is a graphic showing the relation of the Stride and Eddowes murder sites to Lechmere's range of possible routes to work at Broad Street (Eldon Street approach) prior to his move out to Doveton Street. The Abby/Norris 'work - home - family' triangle for the period of the murders is also indicated.



M.

nice! im not sure who norris is ...is he someone from the documentary? any way I think we should just refer to it as the Lechmere Triangle from here on out to avoid confusion, as everyone keeps calling it something different. its his after all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Are we seriously suggesting that just because Lechmere might have passed the vicinity of the other murder sites way before the actual series of murders began that this in some way implicates Lechmere? I’m not aware of any evidence that serial killers only kill at or near familiar spots. How far do we go to try and find things that make Lechmere ‘fit?’ The locations wouldn’t have given Lechmere an excuse for being there if questioned by the police and if someone intended to butcher women in the streets I’d have thought that one poor choice might have been if he’d decided to do it in a location where he’s potentially known.

[MrBarnett]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;n778487]

My mistake, you are right it was Thains cape but that still doesnt explain how it got to be left behind and cleary shows that policemen did not just casually pass by the gates and look in from the street without going inside as Neil suggests

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes, I’m with you there, Trevor. Unless the men just happened to be outside in the yard, close to the gates, how could he have seen them at work?

My guess, and it is only a guess, would be that the PC’s dropped in on occasion for a warm, a cuppa, or something stronger. There was a case concerning Harrison’s yard in Islington where the men from the knacker’s yard behind it were sold a gallon jar of ale after closing hours. And if the yard was attractive to beat cops, it must have been equally attractive to any homeless men/women in the vicinity.

We’ll never get to the bottom of it, but it does throw some doubt on the police timings.

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=MrBarnett;n778497]

Yes, I’m with you there, Trevor. Unless the men just happened to be outside in the yard, close to the gates, how could he have seen them at work?

My guess, and it is only a guess, would be that the PC’s dropped in on occasion for a warm, a cuppa, or something stronger. There was a case concerning Harrison’s yard in Islington where the men from the knacker’s yard behind it were sold a gallon jar of ale after closing hours. And if the yard was attractive to beat cops, it must have been equally attractive to any homeless men/women in the vicinity.

We’ll never get to the bottom of it, but it does throw some doubt on the police timings.

hi gary
did they have fires going in these places? maybe they had a fire going perhaps near tje gate and the coppers would stop for a little bit to warm up. might explain why a cape might have been left there. perhaps he took it off because it was wet to dry it and warm up.

[Mark J D]

... im not sure who norris is ...is he someone from the documentary? any way I think we should just refer to it as the Lechmere Triangle from here on out to avoid confusion, as everyone keeps calling it something different. its his after all.

From the way Dr Norris introduces it and does the big sweepy wave across the map, I get the feeling that such triangles might be a commonplace of criminology...

M.