Originally posted by SuperShodan
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
No no mix up, Pc Neils answer to a jurymans question "The first to arrive on the scene after I had discovered the body were two men who work at a slaughterhouse opposite. They said they knew nothing of the affair, and that they had not heard any screams. I had previously seen the men at work. That would be about a quarter-past three, or half an hour before I found the body.
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
It still looks to me like Neil is out on his beat, and that there is no reason to suggest he didn’t walk down Bucks Row at 03.15.
The cape stuff very clearly refers to Thain and Thain alone. There is absolutely nothing concrete that would call into question Neil patrolling Bucks Row at the times he said he did. Zero.
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Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post
PC Neil has SEEN the workmen while he was out on his patrol. It doesn’t suggest at all he had stopped to chat nor that he had removed his cape.
It still looks to me like Neil is out on his beat, and that there is no reason to suggest he didn’t walk down Bucks Row at 03.15.
The cape stuff very clearly refers to Thain and Thain alone. There is absolutely nothing concrete that would call into question Neil patrolling Bucks Row at the times he said he did. Zero.
This is what Thain said "When I went to the horse-slaughterer's for my cape I did not say that I was going to fetch a doctor, as a murder had been committed. Another constable had taken my cape there"
Who was the other constable and how did that constable come to take Thains cape to the slaughterhouse? so we know that at least one police officer had gone to the slaughterhouse but for what purpose?
If you are going to pin Lechmere down to a time that suggests he was the killer you have to be sure of the other witness timings are safe to rely on.
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Of our 2 policemen the one I'm unsure about is Thain. PC Neil can easily be walking up Brady Street, see the workmen in Winthrop Street (I’m sure he’d have a look along as he passed by) and turn into Bucks Row all at 03.15. The entrance to Bucks Row being just seconds away from the entrance to Bucks Row.
PC Thains cape is a mystery in itself. It would be interesting to know who had his cape, why they handed it in to Winthrop Street and why Thain would thus be walking around without it.
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Originally posted by SuperShodan View PostOf our 2 policemen the one I'm unsure about is Thain. PC Neil can easily be walking up Brady Street, see the workmen in Winthrop Street (I’m sure he’d have a look along as he passed by) and turn into Bucks Row all at 03.15. The entrance to Bucks Row being just seconds away from the entrance to Bucks Row.
PC Thains cape is a mystery in itself. It would be interesting to know who had his cape, why they handed it in to Winthrop Street and why Thain would thus be walking around without it.
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Originally posted by FrankO View PostHi George,
It's clear that it wasn't clear to the reporters what Lechmere was saying. This was quite possibly due to the fact that they didn't know the location well or at all. But they, apparently, heard him say something about the north side, about the wool warehouse and about the opposite side. As the wool warehouse was situated on the north side and the gateway where Nichols was lying was on the south side and belonged to Brown's Stables (so, no wool or any kind of warehouse), I think it's still very much worth considering that he was actually saying that he was passing through Buck's Row on the north side and when passing the entrance/gateway to the wool warehouse, he first noticed something lying by the gateway on the opposite side of the street.
If we assume for a moment this was so, then if he walked obliquely to the middle of the road towards the figure he saw and he stopped there, we can also see how Paul would get to see him with Nichols lying, from where he was at the time he spotted Lechmere, just left of the latter. At that point Nichols and Lechmere would have been more or less in a straight line of vistion. I hope you see what I'm getting at.
Cheers,
Frank
I believe that I see the point you are making. However, Jeff measured the distance from the body to the gateway of the wool warehouse and found it to be 12 metres. I thought this to be an inordinate distance to be seeing a shape in the dark. I have just done a re-enactment on a paved area at the rear of my home by placing a large red builder's barrow, turned over, at a distance of 12 metres. Time was shortly before midnight. I left on the light in the upstairs bathroom which provided some illumination through the window. At 12 metres I could not make out the barrow at all. At six metres I could make out a shape, but I was looking for it where as Lechmere would not have been doing so, and I was unable to identify it as a barrow. At about 3 metres I could see it was a turned over barrow. I am unable to accept that Lechmere would have been able to discern any form of tarpaulin at a distance of 12 metres. I seem to recall that Buck's Row was about 20 feet wide, i.e. about 6 metres, so I consider it reasonable that Lechmere may have discerned a shape from directly opposite on the other side of the road, and clarified that it was a woman at a distance of about 3 metres, i.e. from the centre of the road. This is important because Lechmere drew Paul's attention to a woman lying in the street, and I have satisfied myself that it was not possible for him to know that it was a woman from a distance of 12, or even 6, metres. Neil Bell said he was was "just approaching Essex Wharf when, across the road he saw "something lying in front of the gateway like a tarpaulin". He wandered across to the centre of the road and saw it was a woman." He cites his references as the Times account of the inquest and Home Office File Ref HO 144/221/A49301C, f. 8. I find this to be more reasonable and reliable than confused press accounts relating that the body was located in the gateway of the wool warehouse.
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Hi Frank,
I believe that I see the point you are making. However, Jeff measured the distance from the body to the gateway of the wool warehouse and found it to be 12 metres. I thought this to be an inordinate distance to be seeing a shape in the dark. I have just done a re-enactment on a paved area at the rear of my home by placing a large red builder's barrow, turned over, at a distance of 12 metres. Time was shortly before midnight. I left on the light in the upstairs bathroom which provided some illumination through the window. At 12 metres I could not make out the barrow at all. At six metres I could make out a shape, but I was looking for it where as Lechmere would not have been doing so, and I was unable to identify it as a barrow. At about 3 metres I could see it was a turned over barrow. I am unable to accept that Lechmere would have been able to discern any form of tarpaulin at a distance of 12 metres. I seem to recall that Buck's Row was about 20 feet wide, i.e. about 6 metres, so I consider it reasonable that Lechmere may have discerned a shape from directly opposite on the other side of the road, and clarified that it was a woman at a distance of about 3 metres, i.e. from the centre of the road. This is important because Lechmere drew Paul's attention to a woman lying in the street, and I have satisfied myself that it was not possible for him to know that it was a woman from a distance of 12, or even 6, metres. Neil Bell said he was was "just approaching Essex Wharf when, across the road he saw "something lying in front of the gateway like a tarpaulin". He wandered across to the centre of the road and saw it was a woman." He cites his references as the Times account of the inquest and Home Office File Ref HO 144/221/A49301C, f. 8. I find this to be more reasonable and reliable than confused press accounts relating that the body was located in the gateway of the wool warehouse.
Cheers, George
Im pretty much with you on this one. But for lech to be able to ascertain it was a woman, as opposed to a man, I think he would need to be VERY close. at least several feet and that he may even need to be closer than that. and to my mind getting right next to her and stooping down to be able to make that determination wouldnt be out of the question."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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According to Paul Begg, JtR the Facts page 46, Neil passed the slaughterhouse at 3:15am and saw Tomkins and Mumford at work. He then walked into and down Buck's Row. He did not see anything suspicious or unusual. At the same time Sgt Kirby also passed down Buck's Row. He too did not see anything to arouse his suspicions.
Had Neil been skiving one would imagine that Kirby might have noticed?
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hey george
Im pretty much with you on this one. But for lech to be able to ascertain it was a woman, as opposed to a man, I think he would need to be VERY close. at least several feet and that he may even need to be closer than that. and to my mind getting right next to her and stooping down to be able to make that determination wouldnt be out of the question.
From my re-enactment I would be confident that Lechmere could have seen the dress and bonnet from the centre of the road - about 3 metres.
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by SuperShodan View PostOf our 2 policemen the one I'm unsure about is Thain. PC Neil can easily be walking up Brady Street, see the workmen in Winthrop Street (I’m sure he’d have a look along as he passed by) and turn into Bucks Row all at 03.15. The entrance to Bucks Row being just seconds away from the entrance to Bucks Row.
PC Thains cape is a mystery in itself. It would be interesting to know who had his cape, why they handed it in to Winthrop Street and why Thain would thus be walking around without it.
other discrepancies _______________
Pc Neil "I heard a constable passing Brady-street, so I called him. I did not whistle" he had good hearing then !!!!!!!!!!!!
Pc Thain "[Thain] stated that the nearest point on his beat to Buck's- row was Brady-street. He passed the end every thirty minutes on the Thursday night, and nothing attracted his attention until 3.45 a.m., when he was signalled by the flash of the lantern of another constable (Neale).
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
Ill leave you to it.Last edited by Abby Normal; 01-13-2022, 02:12 PM."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Hi Abby,
From my re-enactment I would be confident that Lechmere could have seen the dress and bonnet from the centre of the road - about 3 metres.
Cheers, George"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
- Likes 1
Comment
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Hi Frank,
I believe that I see the point you are making. However, Jeff measured the distance from the body to the gateway of the wool warehouse and found it to be 12 metres. I thought this to be an inordinate distance to be seeing a shape in the dark. I have just done a re-enactment on a paved area at the rear of my home by placing a large red builder's barrow, turned over, at a distance of 12 metres. Time was shortly before midnight. I left on the light in the upstairs bathroom which provided some illumination through the window. At 12 metres I could not make out the barrow at all. At six metres I could make out a shape, but I was looking for it where as Lechmere would not have been doing so, and I was unable to identify it as a barrow. At about 3 metres I could see it was a turned over barrow. I am unable to accept that Lechmere would have been able to discern any form of tarpaulin at a distance of 12 metres. I seem to recall that Buck's Row was about 20 feet wide, i.e. about 6 metres, so I consider it reasonable that Lechmere may have discerned a shape from directly opposite on the other side of the road, and clarified that it was a woman at a distance of about 3 metres, i.e. from the centre of the road. This is important because Lechmere drew Paul's attention to a woman lying in the street, and I have satisfied myself that it was not possible for him to know that it was a woman from a distance of 12, or even 6, metres. Neil Bell said he was was "just approaching Essex Wharf when, across the road he saw "something lying in front of the gateway like a tarpaulin". He wandered across to the centre of the road and saw it was a woman." He cites his references as the Times account of the inquest and Home Office File Ref HO 144/221/A49301C, f. 8. I find this to be more reasonable and reliable than confused press accounts relating that the body was located in the gateway of the wool warehouse.
Cheers, George
Thanks for your reply. I see what you mean now, going by Jeff's 12 metres. I have a couple of remarks.
First, here I measured it to be around 17.5 metres or 57 feet from the pavement in front of the gateway of the wool warehouse to where Nichols lay, not 12.
Secondly, good that you did this re-enactment, it's always good to try things to see if something was realistic/might work or not. The obvious difficulty with this is, as Abby said, that we don't know how the actual ligthing conditions were (where was/were the light source(s), and how much ligth did it/they give?). While I accept your results, I think it might be interesting, too, to try and see how much light you need for the 'he noticed something as he was passing the gateway to the wool warehouse' to work. If that would be clearly too much light, then we might exclude it without scruples.
Thirdly, I don't want to nitpick, but Neil Bell's "approaching Essex Wharf" means that he wouldn't have reached Essex Wharf yet, and Essex Wharf was directly opposite where she lay.
Cheers,
FrankLast edited by FrankO; 01-13-2022, 02:29 PM."You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"
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Let’s not forget the layout of Harrison Barber’s premises. There were two open yards surrounded by a number of buildings - the office, stables, boiler room etc plus the sheds where the slaughtering would have taken place. The killing and butchering of horses did not place in open view of the public.
Unless all three men just happened to be out in the open yard taking a breather during the few seconds it took Neil to pass the open gates, it seems likely he went inside the premises. And which other J Div PC that we know of was more likely to have dropped his colleague’s cape off at the yard - unless, of course, Thain told a blatant lie under oath.
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