Evidence of innocence

[SuperShodan]

When you look at the timing it just doesn’t make sense.

I’ll explain. Paul leaves for work some time after after Lechmere. Paul leaves about 03.45, around 15 minutes after Lechmere, who in turn claims he left home at 03.30. So Paul is about 15 minutes behind Lechmere. However, Paul still manages to make up the time and catch up with Lechmere in Bucks Row. Lechmere has around a 15 minute head start and yet Paul still manages to make up the time. How is this possible ?

Once again the timing is bad optics. I don’t see how Paul can possibly catch up with Lechmere.

What exactly has Lechmere being doing ? He has a 15 minute head start on Paul and yet there he is in Bucks Row when Paul arrives.

[Mark J D]

What exactly has Lechmere being doing ? He has a 15 minute head start on Paul and yet there he is in Bucks Row when Paul arrives.

See orange line: Lech's time-consuming route to find and pick up Polly from outside that big bunch of pubs on Whitechapel Road, and take her back past the Board School. Red is Lechmere's ostensible direct route to Buck's Row; blue is Paul's route to the murder site (both lines go from the furthest ends of their streets; in reality, both men lived roughly in the middle).




M.

[Great Aunt]

See orange line: Lech's time-consuming route to find and pick up Polly from outside that big bunch of pubs on Whitechapel Road, and take her back past the Board School. Red is Lechmere's ostensible direct route to Buck's Row; blue is Paul's route to the murder site (both lines go from the furthest ends of their streets; in reality, both men lived roughly in the middle).




M.

I wonder if anyone has timed the walking of that orange route (minus the detour back to Bucks Row) and compared it to the Bucks Row route to see which would have been the faster of the 2 routes for Lechmere when walking to work. Looking at that map it seems his shortest route might well not have been Bucks Row (especially if he was running late). Perhaps another reason he didn't ever bump into Paul....

[bolo]

Hi SuperShodan, all,

6 minutes seem like a brisk walk from Doveton Street to Bucks Row, maybe he was a slow walker. I know I couldn't make it in 6 minutes.

Again, I don't believe in LVP timing estimates at all. Crossmere said at the inquest that he left home at 3:20am but I think that should read "I generally leave around 3:20 am", which means it could have been 3:30 am as well.

Grüße,

Boris

[SuperShodan]

Hi SuperShodan, all,

6 minutes seem like a brisk walk from Doveton Street to Bucks Row, maybe he was a slow walker. I know I couldn't make it in 6 minutes.

Again, I don't believe in LVP timing estimates at all. Crossmere said at the inquest that he left home at 3:20am but I think that should read "I generally leave around 3:20 am", which means it could have been 3:30 am as well.

Grüße,

Boris

Hi Bolo, I used the later 03.30 departure for Lechmere in my post. Lechmere’s usual departure of 03.20 would make his presence in Bucks Row at 03.45 inexplicable.
Even leaving at 03.30 (if you believe that, I don’t, it is uncorroborated) still gives Lechmere a 15 minute head start over Paul.
I notice when the timings are being discussed they are always altered in Lechmere’s favour, giving him less time and cutting down his window of opportunity. Of course any errors in the timings can go both ways, and increase the amount of time Lechmere had and further incriminate him. Leaving at around 03.30 could just as easy be leaving at 03.25 giving him even more of a head start over Paul.

[SuperShodan]

The issue for me is even if it’s more than 6 minutes to Bucks Row from Doveton Street there’s still a huge timing issue. For me the timing puts Lechmere right in the frame as Polly Nichols killer.
Let’s be generous to our Pickfords carman and say its a 7 minute walk. Lechmere should arrive in Bucks Row at 03.37. So before Paul even leaves the house Lechmere is walking up Bucks Row at 03.37. Whichever way you look at it Lechmere has a significant head start over Paul. Paul leaves home at 03.45 and we are expected to believe he catches up with Lechmere.
How exactly does Paul catch him up and meet him in Bucks Row at 03.45? It’s just not possible unless Lechmere has stopped walking and has been otherwise engaged.

[Dickere]

See orange line: Lech's time-consuming route to find and pick up Polly from outside that big bunch of pubs on Whitechapel Road, and take her back past the Board School. Red is Lechmere's ostensible direct route to Buck's Row; blue is Paul's route to the murder site (both lines go from the furthest ends of their streets; in reality, both men lived roughly in the middle).




M.

Interesting, thanks.

Wouldn't there have been people who saw Lech if he took the Whitechapel Rd route to find Polly though ?

[Mark J D]

Wouldn't there have been people who saw Lech if he took the Whitechapel Rd route to find Polly though ?

We gather that, on that particular night, the dock fire meant that the streets were unusually empty. But even so, surely the fact is that a random killer has no reason to strike unless the conditions are right. In the case of our man, he just carries on walking if there's a chance of his being seen...

M.

[Fisherman]

The issue for me is even if it’s more than 6 minutes to Bucks Row from Doveton Street there’s still a huge timing issue. For me the timing puts Lechmere right in the frame as Polly Nichols killer.
Let’s be generous to our Pickfords carman and say its a 7 minute walk. Lechmere should arrive in Bucks Row at 03.37. So before Paul even leaves the house Lechmere is walking up Bucks Row at 03.37. Whichever way you look at it Lechmere has a significant head start over Paul. Paul leaves home at 03.45 and we are expected to believe he catches up with Lechmere.
How exactly does Paul catch him up and meet him in Bucks Row at 03.45? It’s just not possible unless Lechmere has stopped walking and has been otherwise engaged.

My own take on things has always been that the reason that the two timings 3.20 and 3.30 are both present in the material is likely that the carman said that he normally left home at 3.20, but on the murder morning he was ten minutes late and left at 3.30.

Just as you point out, even if he DID leave home at 3.30, he should not be present in Bucks Row at around 3.46, which is the time I think Paul arrived outside Browns at; Robert Paul said at the inquest that he left home shortly before 3.45, and he said in his Lloyds interview that it was exactly 3.45 as he was walking down Bucks Row. That walk takes around a minute to get you from Brady Street to Browns Stable Yard, and so that is why I use this time. It is a time that is supported by Wynne Baxters words in his summary of the inquest, where he says that the finding of the body will have taken palce at a time not far removed from 3.45. It is also a timing that is echoed in Donald Swanson October report, plus it is a timing that sits very well with Dr Llewellyn being called to Bucks Row at around 3.55-4.00 AM.

So why was it that Charles Lechmere was found by Paul in Bucks Row at 3.46, when he should have been present there at 3.37, going by the timings we made for the Blink Films documentary? There may have been a few different explanations:
- Charles Lechnere could have walked at an extremely slow pace, doubling the time it normally takes to cover the distance. This, however, would be illogical, since he said he was behind time.
-The cartman could have used an alternative route to Bucks Row, twice as long as the ordinary one. This too seems an illogical suggestions for the same reasons - why would he use a longer route when he was already at peril to be late to Pickfords?
-He may have run into some sort of delay, like having to seek out a toilet. If this was so, a nine minute toilet visit at a time when he was running late would seem a very long time. Plus he metions no such thing at the inquest. And no delay could have been caused by external persons, since Lechmere said he met noone until Paul "overtook" hiom in Bucks Row.
-Last, but not least, he may have mistaken the time. If he left home at 3.39 instead of 3.30, then he should have been outside Browns Stable Yard at around 3.46. The question is, was he ever likely to have mistaken 3.30 for 3.40-ish?

Whichever way we look upon this, I donīt think we can treat it as uniteresting or unsuspicious that Charles Lechmere was outside Browns Stable Yard at a time when he should have left Bucks Row long ago. It is one of many factors that do not seem right about him, and it must remain so until information comes forth to dispell that notion.

[rjpalmer]

My own take on things has always been that the reason that the two timings 3.20 and 3.30 are both present in the material is likely that the carman said that he normally left home at 3.20, but on the murder morning he was ten minutes late and left at 3.30.

On the bright side, you’re admitting that this is just your interpretation. By contrast, Shodan and others are claiming it’s an ascertained fact…which it isn’t.

Modern commentators have walked from Doveton to Broad Street in twenty-five minutes. If CAL was in the habit of leaving at 3.20, that would mean that he would always be fifteen minutes early. This could be true, but from my experience, if a person is aware that he will be fifteen minutes early, then he knows that if he is running late he can also leave at “about 3.30” and still make it on time, provided he doesn’t dawdle too much. I’ve seen no evidence that this wasn’t what happened that morning. The alleged “missing time” is entirely an artifact of the assumption that CAL was lying.

[FrankO]

Hi Bolo, I used the later 03.30 departure for Lechmere in my post. Lechmere’s usual departure of 03.20 would make his presence in Bucks Row at 03.45 inexplicable.
Even leaving at 03.30 (if you believe that, I don’t, it is uncorroborated) still gives Lechmere a 15 minute head start over Paul.
I notice when the timings are being discussed they are always altered in Lechmere’s favour, giving him less time and cutting down his window of opportunity. Of course any errors in the timings can go both ways, and increase the amount of time Lechmere had and further incriminate him. Leaving at around 03.30 could just as easy be leaving at 03.25 giving him even more of a head start over Paul.

Hi SuperShodan,

There are a couple of things to take into account.

Out of the 8 versions of Lechmere's inquest statement to be found in the newspapers here on this site, there are only 2 that have him state that he "left home at 20 minutes past 3", 1 that has him state he "left home at half past 3" and 5 that read he "left home at about half past 3". If we are to draw a conclusion from this, I think it would be that he quite likely actually said "I left home at about three thirty" and not "at three twenty". Seeing he also stated that he was behind time himself, he must usually have left earlier than "about 3.30", which may have been around 3.25 and it may have been around 3.20. But, like RJ states, is't no fact.

Then, if Lechmere was the killer and he would have stated he left home at 3.30, he could have done the math, just like we can today. He would have had a good idea that it would be a less than 10 minutes walk from his home to the murder spot, which would have him arrive there a couple of minutes before 3.40. Plus he would have read what Neil and Paul said about their timings. While Neil's timing already doesn't go too well with Lechmere's, that of Paul clearly doesn't fit at all. Lechmere had a couple of days to come up with a timing that went well with the timings of both Neil and Paul and also with his own claim that he was behind time. Why would he then not state he left home at around 3.35?

[FrankO]

I wonder if anyone has timed the walking of that orange route (minus the detour back to Bucks Row) and compared it to the Bucks Row route to see which would have been the faster of the 2 routes for Lechmere when walking to work. Looking at that map it seems his shortest route might well not have been Bucks Row (especially if he was running late). Perhaps another reason he didn't ever bump into Paul....

Hi Great Aunt,

From the middle of Doveton Street to the intersection Baker's Row-Buck's Row via Buck's Row is about 820 meters; from the middle of Doveton Street to the same intersection via Whitechapel Road is about 930 meters.

The best,
Frank

[Mark J D]

From the middle of Doveton Street to the intersection Baker's Row-Buck's Row via Buck's Row is about 820 meters; from the middle of Doveton Street to the same intersection via Whitechapel Road is about 930 meters.

Has anyone made sense of the route Lechmere is quoted as claiming he followed? It's never been comprehensible to me...

M.

[Fisherman]

On the bright side, you’re admitting that this is just your interpretation.

I never much like the "aedmitting" stuff, R J. Admitting is what we doi when we have earlier suggested something else, and I never did. So I donīt admit, I state.
I hope you can admit that?

Modern commentators have walked from Doveton to Broad Street in twenty-five minutes. If CAL was in the habit of leaving at 3.20, that would mean that he would always be fifteen minutes early. This could be true, but from my experience, if a person is aware that he will be fifteen minutes early, then he knows that if he is running late he can also leave at “about 3.30” and still make it on time, provided he doesn’t dawdle too much. I’ve seen no evidence that this wasn’t what happened that morning. The alleged “missing time” is entirely an artifact of the assumption that CAL was lying.

First of all, my daughter is always 30 minutes in advance at her work. She has to change and get ready for work, and that takes time. To what degree something such was at play for Lechmere, we donīt know. It could also be that he simply didnīt want to take the risk to be late, and so he allowed some more time than he needed to for the walk.
You say you see no evidence that you are not correct, but as always the counterweight is the fact that there is no evidence to the contrary either. Actually, come to think of it, I see no evidence to disprove that he was the killer. So maybe we need to move away from those kinds of rather useless statements?

The last sentence in your post is deeply confused and totally wrong, of course. The missing time is not "an artefact of the assumption that Lechmere was lying" at all. Where did you get that from?
The missing time is what we get when we accept that the body was found at approximately 3.45, combined with our knowledge that it took Lechmere around seven minutes to reach Browns Stable Yard from 22 Doveton Street, nothing else. 3.45 - 0.07= 3.38. And he said he left home at 3.30.
To claim that these figures can ony be interpreted as pointing to missing time if we work from the assumption of guilt is as naughty as it is wrong, R J. Itīs much the same as your somewhat selective take on the value of evidence - I can just as easily say that the refusal to admit that there is missing time to account for is the artefact of the assumption that Lechmere must have been innocent.

[Fisherman]

Hi SuperShodan,

There are a couple of things to take into account.

Out of the 8 versions of Lechmere's inquest statement to be found in the newspapers here on this site, there are only 2 that have him state that he "left home at 20 minutes past 3", 1 that has him state he "left home at half past 3" and 5 that read he "left home at about half past 3". If we are to draw a conclusion from this, I think it would be that he quite likely actually said "I left home at about three thirty" and not "at three twenty". Seeing he also stated that he was behind time himself, he must usually have left earlier than "about 3.30", which may have been around 3.25 and it may have been around 3.20. But, like RJ states, is't no fact.

Then, if Lechmere was the killer and he would have stated he left home at 3.30, he could have done the math, just like we can today. He would have had a good idea that it would be a less than 10 minutes walk from his home to the murder spot, which would have him arrive there a couple of minutes before 3.40. Plus he would have read what Neil and Paul said about their timings. While Neil's timing already doesn't go too well with Lechmere's, that of Paul clearly doesn't fit at all. Lechmere had a couple of days to come up with a timing that went well with the timings of both Neil and Paul and also with his own claim that he was behind time. Why would he then not state he left home at around 3.35?

If he normally left home at 3.30 and in this case he had left at, say, 3.15, to find a victim, then he may simply have wanted to obscure that fact, forgetting in the process to amend for his presence in Bucks Row at 3.45. It really does not need to be any harder than that, Iīd say.