Evidence of innocence

[rjpalmer]

Technical point, but at some point Back Church Lane was renumbered.

The ad below (from July 1870) states that No. 3 had recently become No. 4.




This generally agrees with other noticeable changes from odd to even numbers; between the 1860s and 1881, No. 103 (the Coach and Horses P.H.) became No. 86.

The main relevance being that the quack's shop at No. 6 in the 1860s, which sounds at least inhabitable, may not have been the shed of the 1880s

[Darryl Kenyon]

None of these three people are known to have altered their names, to have disagreed with the police, to have reasons to be at the other murder sites at the relevant hours and so on.

Lech didn't alter his name . He used the name Cross in the 1876 accident when he was at work for Pickfords . And surprise surprise he uses the name Cross when at the inquest when he admits he has worked for Pickfords for 20 odd years. So what can we assume , Oh wait a minute his name at Pickfords on the work ledgers etc may just have been Cross. But of course that doesn't involve a JFK type conspiracy.

Ultimate sourcebook P47 Witness [ Paul ]and the other [ Lech ], walked on together until they saw a policeman and told him what they had seen . . So who disagreed with the police, Lech alone ? Not according to the coroner but even though the coroner was there Fish, you know better because you see a so called scam when there isn't one.

Ultimate sourcebook p42 The other man [ Paul ] left witness [ Lech ] at the corner of Hanbury st and turned into Corbetts crt.
Oh wait a minute isn't Hanbury st one of the murder sites . So Paul had reason to be near at least one of the other sites. And how do you know that Reeves or Crow could not have been at any of the other murder sites at the relevant times. You don't, simple as.
And it also seems to me that George yard is far more central to the killings than Doveton st. Of course that doesn't mean I am suggesting either of them as Jack , I am just making a point. There must have been hundreds of people in Whitechapel who would have easy access to the murder sites and who would have more time to pick a vulnerable victim and clandestine site than someone on their way to work in a small time frame .

Speaking of the murder sites what was Lech doing on Mitre Square ? A1 place for him to be. Why ?

Instead of belittling anyone who disagrees with you Fish, why don't you try answering serious questions about your theory? Like show us some cast iron evidence which isn't contradicted by other experts about the blood flow for instance. Or what Lech would have said about the bloodied knife on his person if Pc Mizen had searched him? How did lech know for instance that when Paul went to the body he wouldn't notice the cut throat and the blood and be immediately suspicious of Lech ? Or if he was so good and clever at concealing his ID with his game of double bluff, how come the Star got wind of his address on the same day as he appeared at the inquest ?

Yes Fish , you may know a lot more about the subject than me, but that doesn't always mean you are always right

Yours Disrespectfully Darryl

[The Baron]

Nichols was cut after Cross and Paul left here.

There was no blood, no wound, no throat cut, no abdominal mutilation, no eyes wide open, no blood running from the neck, no pool of blood, and she was still breathing, when they examined her.

That proves Cross and Paul are innocent.




The Baron

[Fiver]

The only relevant point about the George Thomas case was the length of the breaks. On what basis do you believe Lechmere wouldn’t have had similar breaks?

The only part that you thought was relevant was the length of the breaks. Why not do others the courtesy of giving the full article, source, and date so they can decide for themselves what parts are important?

As I said, teenage carman George Thomas was working a lot less hours in 1897 than his predecessors did in 1891. That implies that labor had been successful in getting their hours reduced. And if they were able to get that concession from management, there is a significant possibility they successfully negotiated better breaks as well. Also, George Thomas was a 17-year-old former van boy made carman without any training. That implies Pickfords had a labor shortage, which also makes it more likely that the 1897 carmen had been able to negotiate better breaks than their predecessors had in 1888.

And as I already said - "But even in the unlikely event that Charles Allen Lechmere got as many and as long of breaks as George Thomas, nobody who started a shift at 4am would stop for dinner at 4:30am. It would make no sense at all and would be a glaring strangeness in the shift records, especially if this had happened on the shift where Chapman was murdered."

The length of CAL's meal breaks is not important. The timing of them is. Taking a meal break only an hour or two into a 14 to 18 hour shift would be extremely unusual behavior and would stand out in the delivery records, especially if someone had been murdered nearby during that break.

[Fiver]

You’re right he probably wouldn’t have had a ‘tea’ break, but he may well have had a breakfast break an hour or two after he started work, obviously slotted in to his delivery schedule: drop off cats meat at Coventry Street by 5 and then an hour’s breakfast perhaps? His cart would then have been empty, and even full, how many thieves were out at 4/5 in the morning looking to steal catsmeat?

Your ‘alibi’ theory has more holes than a tube of Polo mints.

Drop off cats meat at Coventry Street? I'm fairly sure there was not much market for cats meat at the Prince of Wales Theater, The London Pavilion Music Hall, or the Empire Theater. It's also 3 miles west of where Annie Chapman was murdered. The walk one way between the two sites would take an hour.

Or perhaps you meant the Coventry Street a few blocks from Charles Lechmere's home? I'd have figured the Commercial Glass Works had no use whatsoever for cats meat.

Seriously, MrB, what is your obsession with cats meat?

Lechmere worked for Pickford's, not for a meat packing plant. As you stated in another thread "Pickfords were universal carriers, meaning they carried just about anything: consumer goods, foodstuffs, minerals, building materials, fuel...and more besides."

You building a hypothetical house of cards does nothing to disprove my point. Taking a meal break only 1 hour into a 14 to 18 hour shift would be very odd and stand out in the records.

[Fiver]

Or, as I said on here a while ago, it doesn't seem impossible that his mum came out to Doveton Street to see the brood on the Saturday, and he solicitously walked her home in the dark afterwards... I mean, there was a murderer about...

M.

Walking his mum home is certainly possible.

But killing Stride and Eddowes would have required staying up for 23 hours straight.

[Fiver]

And maybe helping out a bit - heavy lifting etc - at his Old Ma’s catsmeat shop/shed if required. She certainly had one when the 1891 census was taken, and it’s not unreasonable to assume she probably hadn’t opened it on that very day, or that her son might have helped his 60+year-old widowed mother in her business.

All of this speculation could be correct. It also has no bearing on whether CAL was the Ripper.

[Paddy Goose]

Thank you Mr. D for an excellent post. You encapsulated reality and normalcy. In a word, innocence.

There is nothing remarkable about Lechmere's discovery of the body.

What are the odds that a carman just happened to come across a murder victim? Oh, and his route to work also took him past the next murder site?

Well, there was another carman taking the exact same route at the same time. He also walked past Hanbury Street on his way to work.

... the two carmen following the same routes around the same time proves there was nothing out of the ordinary about Lechmere's overlap with the two murder sites.

[Fiver]

Lloyds 23rd Jan, 1881:

23rd Jan, 1881 was a Sunday, so the previous Tuesday evening, would have been the 18th.

That was the evening of "...a storm of great severity, which has not only done damage to property, the amount of which cannot at present be estimated, but has also caused the loss of many lives." - 19 January 1881 Standard.

"The result of this state of things was that very few omnibuses ventured to make a start, the tram-cars remained idle, and but few cabmen were venturesome enough to risk injury to their horses for the sake of extra fares they were likely to earn."

The Standard also mentions "most of the thoroughfares were completely blocked" by "considerable drifts", as well as "blinding snow" and "the increasing gale".

"No such severe storm has been known in this part of the country for thirty or forty years." 20 January 1881 Daily News

There's also information on the "great storm" in the 20 January 1881 Manchester Guardian

It's obvious that by evening the Pickfords carman had no schedule left, with any place he wanted to pick up or deliver long since closed if they had ever opened. And on an evening where people froze to death, the Pickfords man who was just trying to make it back to shelter, gave a ride to a young actress.

Just what is your point here?

[Mark J D]

Walking his mum home is certainly possible.

But killing Stride and Eddowes would have required staying up for 23 hours straight.

Not interested.

M.

[Fiver]

Not interested.

M.

Really? Then why did you reply?

[rjpalmer]

Some time back it was suggested that "Charles Cross" may have been allowed to use a false name at the 1876 inquest into the fatal accident.

The following excerpt is from a 1874 "hit-and-run" case in Whitechapel, involving a Pickford driver who collided with an omnibus.

According to the foreman for Pickford & Co., the company immediately turned over the driver's name and address to the victim, leaving him fend for himself.

[Fiver]

You would have us believe they checked Lechmere out at work and home, discovered his real identity, but forgot to mention it?

None of my points had anything to do with forgetting to mention anything. Did you even read them?

You said "If so much investigative work was done on Lechmere, why is it not mentioned in the surviving police reports?". I pointed out that "Just because records have not survived does not mean that they never existed."

Not being mentioned in the surviving reports does not prove Lechmere was never investigated. We don't have all of the police reports.

You said "Do you really believe all this investigative work took place and it didn’t warrant a mention in the summarised police reports?" I pointed out that "According to Chief Inspector Donald Swanson, over 2000 people were interviewed, "upwards of 300" people were investigated, and around 80 people were detained. And it appears none of them warranted a mention in his summarized police reports."

Not being specifically mentioned in the police summaries does not prove Lechmere was never investigated. Swanson mentioned over 300 people being investigated and named none of them.

[Fiver]

5er,

I’ve just come across a report in the ELO of 24th November, 1883 where it was said that Pickfords did have a van guard on every one of their vehicles.

What is the ELO? I'm fairly sure you don't mean the Electric Light Orchestra.

And please provide the source. There's a big difference between a Pickfords rep claiming something to reassure customers and an actual independent source saying that they did.

[Fiver]

So you imagine that after each of the murders the police had a look at Lechmere’s paperwork to make sure he wasn’t anywhere near the murder scene?

Who else, in your fevered imagination, was singled out for such intense scrutiny?

You are the one imagining things I never said. Again.

I have never claimed that the police did look at Charles Lechmere's records. No one can prove if they did or did not - We don't have all of the police records.

My points were:
* Every pickup and delivery would be signed for and the time recorded. This would not only show where a carman was at certain times, it would show if there were odd gaps in the record. For example, it would be incredibly odd for someone who started work at 4am to take his food break at 4:30am.
* Every pickup or delivery would also be one, possibly several witnesses as to whether the carman had bloodstains on his hands or clothing. Things that could be hidden at 5am would be a lot more obvious in the hours between sunrise and sunset.