Evidence of innocence

[Harry D]

There is nothing remarkable about Lechmere's discovery of the body.

What are the odds that a carman just happened to come across a murder victim? Oh, and his route to work also took him past the next murder site?

Well, there was another carman taking the exact same route at the same time. He also walked past Hanbury Street on his way to work.

Lechmerians need Lechmere to kill on his way to work, because he wasn't anywhere he shouldn't have been. Unfortunately, the two carmen following the same routes around the same time proves there was nothing out of the ordinary about Lechmere's overlap with the two murder sites.

[MrBarnett]

So far, you have provided no evidence that Pickfords had "horseflesh carts".

I have, you just haven’t paying attention.

[MrBarnett]

Pickfords carried tons of the stuff.

[MrBarnett]

The Manager of Pickford’s Horse Department was on Harrison, Barber’s board of directors. HB had the contract to dispose of Pickford’s worn-out nags.

Several generations of the Lechmere family were involved in the horse flesh/cat’s meat business. One of CAL’s sons was described as a carter/salesman of cats meat while living in Winthrop Street a few doors from HB’s yard.

Of course, CAL may have carried fine china into the west end at 4.00 in the morning. He needn’t have been delivering cats meat to HB or other wholesalers in Bethnal Green/Mile end at the time when they needed it i.e. around 5 a.m. And if he did, he no doubt would have had an army of vanguards on board. The morning theft of cats meat was at epidemic proportions in those days.

[Mark J D]

Of course, CAL may have carried fine china into the west end at 4.00 in the morning. He needn’t have been delivering cats meat to HB or other wholesalers in Bethnal Green/Mile end at the time when they needed it i.e. around 5 a.m.

You know, something that jumped out at me a while back was that the shop at 29 Hanbury was a cats' meat seller. Yes, I know: it's the woman who says "This is a good place, down here..."; but I can still see old Lech smiling as Chapman pushes open a door that he's been through before...

M.

[MrBarnett]

Pickfords carried tons of the stuff.

For those of you who don’t know, Broad Street Station was in Liverpool Street and CAL worked at Broad Street.

[Fiver]

Here’s my contribution. This driver worked from 8.30 to 11.00, so perhaps Lechmere worked from 4.00 until 6.30.

And perhaps he had Saturdays off.

And perhaps he also had several hours of breaks during his shift.

And perhaps he had no van guard.

And perhaps he was able to swerve off his delivery route without it being noticed - as the Pickfords man did who took stolen goods to a shop off his route.

None of this undermines any of my points in any way.

* Perhaps Lechmere had Saturdays off, but Sunday seems more likely. In either case, to kill Stride and Eddowes, he would have had to get up three hours early or stay up for 23 hours straight.

* 1888 is not 1897. The 1897 carman, 17-year-old George Thomas of Pottery-Road, said he had 3 1/2 hours of breaks and that his shift was 14 1/2 hours. The 1891 Pickford carmen said they worked between 14 and 18 hours. Thomas was working a lot less hours than his predecessors, it's likely he also got longer breaks than they did.

But even in the unlikely event that Charles Allen Lechmere got as many and as long of breaks as George Thomas, nobody who started a shift at 4am would stop for dinner at 4:30am. It would make no sense at all and would be a glaring strangeness in the shift records, especially if this had happened on the shift where Chapman was murdered.

* Perhaps he had no van guard. Perhaps he did. None of which changes the fact that Charles Lechmere would have been seen by at least one, and perhaps several people at every delivery or pickup. These would mostly be in broad daylight, so the chance of hiding inconvenient bloodstains on his hands or clothing would have been almost nil.

* Perhaps you should reread the article you posted. The driver was noticed and arrested. It was a minor diversion that would have only taken a few minutes. The cart was parked right outside, so it only would have been out of the carman's sight for a few moments.

Killing Annie Chapman would have taken a lot more time than dropping off a stolen parcel. Her killer would have to get away from the cart. Then he'd need to find a prostitute and persuade her that he was safe. Considering the papers were full of Nichols death and loudly proclaiming that Nicholst was the second, or even third victim of the Whitechapel Killer, that could have taken some time. Then there's going with the prostitute to a place she thought was safe. The murder would have taken moments. The mutilations would have taken a lot longer. Then there's the time trying to find somewhere to wash up and reduce the amount of blood on your hands and clothing. Then, after all that, the killer would need to head back to the cart.

All that would probably take at least half-an-hour. And during that whole time the cart would be completely unattended, easy pickings for thieves.

And there would still be that unexplained time gap in the records.

As I've said several times, if CAL was the Ripper, it would have made far more sense for him to kill after work.

Also why the truncated newpaper clipping minus any names, dates, or even the name of the newspaper?

It's not like there's any reason not to tell the full story of George Thomas, teen-aged van boy become untrained carman, or the accidental death of Charles John Kingston of 1 Clarence Road, Gunnersby.

"An Inexperienced Boy Driver" - Reynold's Newspaper, 20 June 1897

"An Inexperienced Boy-Driver. His Employers Censured" - The Guardian, 16 June 1897

"Treasury Clerk Killed" - Reynold's Newspaper, 13 June 1897

"Two Lamentable Fatalities" - The Pall Mall Gazette, 15 June 1897

[MrBarnett]

You know, something that jumped out at me a while back was that the shop at 29 Hanbury was a cats' meat seller. Yes, I know: it's the woman who says "This is a good place, down here..."; but I can still see old Lech smiling as Chapman pushes open a door that he's been through before...

M.

Hi Mark,

The catsmeat connection again!

I don’t imagine Pickfords delivered horseflesh to individual retailers like Mrs Hardiman, but they would have delivered to places like HB’s wholesale outlet in Coventry Street, Bethnal Green. If that was one of his delivery points, there and back to Broad Street he would never have been far from Hanbury Street.

As Jim Royle would say, ‘Alibi, my Arse!’

Gary

[MrBarnett]

None of this undermines any of my points in any way.

* Perhaps Lechmere had Saturdays off, but Sunday seems more likely. In either case, to kill Stride and Eddowes, he would have had to get up three hours early or stay up for 23 hours straight.

* 1888 is not 1897. The 1897 carman, 17-year-old George Thomas of Pottery-Road, said he had 3 1/2 hours of breaks and that his shift was 14 1/2 hours. The 1891 Pickford carmen said they worked between 14 and 18 hours. Thomas was working a lot less hours than his predecessors, it's likely he also got longer breaks than they did.

But even in the unlikely event that Charles Allen Lechmere got as many and as long of breaks as George Thomas, nobody who started a shift at 4am would stop for dinner at 4:30am. It would make no sense at all and would be a glaring strangeness in the shift records, especially if this had happened on the shift where Chapman was murdered.

* Perhaps he had no van guard. Perhaps he did. None of which changes the fact that Charles Lechmere would have been seen by at least one, and perhaps several people at every delivery or pickup. These would mostly be in broad daylight, so the chance of hiding inconvenient bloodstains on his hands or clothing would have been almost nil.

* Perhaps you should reread the article you posted. The driver was noticed and arrested. It was a minor diversion that would have only taken a few minutes. The cart was parked right outside, so it only would have been out of the carman's sight for a few moments.

Killing Annie Chapman would have taken a lot more time than dropping off a stolen parcel. Her killer would have to get away from the cart. Then he'd need to find a prostitute and persuade her that he was safe. Considering the papers were full of Nichols death and loudly proclaiming that Nicholst was the second, or even third victim of the Whitechapel Killer, that could have taken some time. Then there's going with the prostitute to a place she thought was safe. The murder would have taken moments. The mutilations would have taken a lot longer. Then there's the time trying to find somewhere to wash up and reduce the amount of blood on your hands and clothing. Then, after all that, the killer would need to head back to the cart.

All that would probably take at least half-an-hour. And during that whole time the cart would be completely unattended, easy pickings for thieves.

And there would still be that unexplained time gap in the records.

As I've said several times, if CAL was the Ripper, it would have made far more sense for him to kill after work.

Also why the truncated newpaper clipping minus any names, dates, or even the name of the newspaper?

It's not like there's any reason not to tell the full story of George Thomas, teen-aged van boy become untrained carman, or the accidental death of Charles John Kingston of 1 Clarence Road, Gunnersby.

"An Inexperienced Boy Driver" - Reynold's Newspaper, 20 June 1897

"An Inexperienced Boy-Driver. His Employers Censured" - The Guardian, 16 June 1897

"Treasury Clerk Killed" - Reynold's Newspaper, 13 June 1897

"Two Lamentable Fatalities" - The Pall Mall Gazette, 15 June 1897

If Sunday was his day off, Saturday night was when he could indulge in a little socialising. Home by 6.30, a few hours shut-eye and then back to his old haunts to see his mum and daughter and have a pint or two with his mates knowing he didn’t have to get up early the next morning.

[MrBarnett]

None of this undermines any of my points in any way.

* Perhaps Lechmere had Saturdays off, but Sunday seems more likely. In either case, to kill Stride and Eddowes, he would have had to get up three hours early or stay up for 23 hours straight.

* 1888 is not 1897. The 1897 carman, 17-year-old George Thomas of Pottery-Road, said he had 3 1/2 hours of breaks and that his shift was 14 1/2 hours. The 1891 Pickford carmen said they worked between 14 and 18 hours. Thomas was working a lot less hours than his predecessors, it's likely he also got longer breaks than they did.

But even in the unlikely event that Charles Allen Lechmere got as many and as long of breaks as George Thomas, nobody who started a shift at 4am would stop for dinner at 4:30am. It would make no sense at all and would be a glaring strangeness in the shift records, especially if this had happened on the shift where Chapman was murdered.

* Perhaps he had no van guard. Perhaps he did. None of which changes the fact that Charles Lechmere would have been seen by at least one, and perhaps several people at every delivery or pickup. These would mostly be in broad daylight, so the chance of hiding inconvenient bloodstains on his hands or clothing would have been almost nil.

* Perhaps you should reread the article you posted. The driver was noticed and arrested. It was a minor diversion that would have only taken a few minutes. The cart was parked right outside, so it only would have been out of the carman's sight for a few moments.

Killing Annie Chapman would have taken a lot more time than dropping off a stolen parcel. Her killer would have to get away from the cart. Then he'd need to find a prostitute and persuade her that he was safe. Considering the papers were full of Nichols death and loudly proclaiming that Nicholst was the second, or even third victim of the Whitechapel Killer, that could have taken some time. Then there's going with the prostitute to a place she thought was safe. The murder would have taken moments. The mutilations would have taken a lot longer. Then there's the time trying to find somewhere to wash up and reduce the amount of blood on your hands and clothing. Then, after all that, the killer would need to head back to the cart.

All that would probably take at least half-an-hour. And during that whole time the cart would be completely unattended, easy pickings for thieves.

And there would still be that unexplained time gap in the records.

As I've said several times, if CAL was the Ripper, it would have made far more sense for him to kill after work.

Also why the truncated newpaper clipping minus any names, dates, or even the name of the newspaper?

It's not like there's any reason not to tell the full story of George Thomas, teen-aged van boy become untrained carman, or the accidental death of Charles John Kingston of 1 Clarence Road, Gunnersby.

"An Inexperienced Boy Driver" - Reynold's Newspaper, 20 June 1897

"An Inexperienced Boy-Driver. His Employers Censured" - The Guardian, 16 June 1897

"Treasury Clerk Killed" - Reynold's Newspaper, 13 June 1897

"Two Lamentable Fatalities" - The Pall Mall Gazette, 15 June 1897

The only relevant point about the George Thomas case was the length of the breaks. On what basis do you believe Lechmere wouldn’t have had similar breaks?

You’re right he probably wouldn’t have had a ‘tea’ break, but he may well have had a breakfast break an hour or two after he started work, obviously slotted in to his delivery schedule: drop off cats meat at Coventry Street by 5 and then an hour’s breakfast perhaps? His cart would then have been empty, and even full, how many thieves were out at 4/5 in the morning looking to steal catsmeat?

Your ‘alibi’ theory has more holes than a tube of Polo mints.

[Mark J D]

If Sunday was his day off, Saturday night was when he could indulge in a little socialising. Home by 6.30, a few hours shut-eye and then back to his old haunts to see his mum and daughter and have a pint or two with his mates knowing he didn’t have to get up early the next morning.

Or, as I said on here a while ago, it doesn't seem impossible that his mum came out to Doveton Street to see the brood on the Saturday, and he solicitously walked her home in the dark afterwards... I mean, there was a murderer about...

M.

[MrBarnett]

If Sunday was his day off, Saturday night was when he could indulge in a little socialising. Home by 6.30, a few hours shut-eye and then back to his old haunts to see his mum and daughter and have a pint or two with his mates knowing he didn’t have to get up early the next morning.

And maybe helping out a bit - heavy lifting etc - at his Old Ma’s catsmeat shop/shed if required. She certainly had one when the 1891 census was taken, and it’s not unreasonable to assume she probably hadn’t opened it on that very day, or that her son might have helped his 60+year-old widowed mother in her business.

[MrBarnett]

Or, as I said on here a while ago, it doesn't seem impossible that his mum came out to Doveton Street to see the brood on the Saturday, and he solicitously walked her home in the dark afterwards...

M.

Yes, Mark that would make perfect sense. Perhaps Maria and Mary Jane popped over to see Elizabeth and the kids earlier and CAL walked them back. And being back on his home turf, a few pints with his mates wouldn’t have gone amiss - after all he could have a lie in the next day. I can’t remember how many times after a long day at work I’ve gone out on the lash and got a second wind. Sometimes I wonder whether some of these anti-lechers have ever lead normal lives. The sort of lives where helping your old mum, seeing your daughter or having a few bevvies with your mates once a week isn’t prevented by a long day at work.

[Mark J D]

Yes, Mark that would make perfect sense. Perhaps Maria and Mary Jane popped over to see Elizabeth and the kids earlier and CAL walked them back. And being back on his home turf, a few pints with his mates wouldn’t have gone amiss - after all he could have a lie in the next day. I can’t remember how many times after a long day at work I’ve gone out on the lash and got a second wind. Sometimes I wonder whether some of these anti-lechers have ever lead normal lives. The sort of lives where helping your old mum, seeing your daughter or having a few bevvies with your mates once a week isn’t prevented by a long day at work.

Pardon my scenario, but it brings us to the knif. Would he have carried his usual long, pointed, sharp blade on a trip to or with his Ma? If he had only a smaller weapon on him, like a penknife, one or two odd features of the Stride murder might be explainable. And if he'd had a few bevvies, an odd feature or two of the Eddowes murder might be explainable also. But by then he seems to have got his usual blade back: does anyone have a credible theory about a possible second knife -- maybe fetched from the cats' meat shed, or even from the south end of Broad Street Station before he turned back to Mitre Square? So far as I know, people haven't been speculating about the killer going to fetch his uterus knife half way through the 'double event', horrid term; but it's the kind of thing that one naturally imagines when one has an actual suspect to place in his actual environment...

M.

[JeffHamm]

And maybe helping out a bit - heavy lifting etc - at his Old Ma’s catsmeat shop/shed if required. She certainly had one when the 1891 census was taken, and it’s not unreasonable to assume she probably hadn’t opened it on that very day, or that her son might have helped his 60+year-old widowed mother in her business.

And you can substantiate these "maybe's" I presume? You've requested I substantiate my suggestions that the police would look into the backgrounds of those who found the body, otherwise you dismiss such things with pejorative adjectives while failing to present any evidence that the suggestion is unfounded. We know, for example, the police did look into Richardson for the Chapman murder. We don't have the primary investigative notes, sadly, and the summary documents focus on the investigation of those who were considered potential suspects. So, if people like Cross/Lechmere, and Paul, and Richardson, were quickly cleared of suspicion, then they never would have been considered suspects for a sufficient period to be likely to show up in the records we have, making us lucky to have the reference to Richardson at all. But that reference does provide a suggestion at what the police did.

So, keeping the playing field level, where's your substantiation for any of these claims? Not that she had one in 1891, but in 1888, when it matters. Or that she hadn't opened it on that very day? Or that Cross/Lechmere did actually help her on that very day? Or is actual evidence not required on the guilty side and claims purported to be "not unreasonalbel" allowed, unless included on the innocent side?

- Jeff