Evidence of innocence

[Fiver]

The one and only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that Charles Lechmere was an unknown entity to the police on the evening of Sunday the 2nd, 1888.

It's not surprising that you came to a false conclusion when you started with false premises.

Charles Allen Lechmere testified on Monday the 3rd, 1888, so clearly the police and the Coroner knew who he was by the evening of the 2nd.

The police knew who PC Mizen was before the Inquest on the 1st, so clearly they knew about CAL finding the body before the Inquest on the 1st. They might or might have known his identity on the 1st, but CAL came forward of his own volition even though neither Paul nor Mizen knew who he was.

[Fiver]

Yes indeed, Paul was the more conspicious one - after Lechmere had surfaced. Before it, the police did not believe in his story.

Paul was the more conspicuous one from the moment his version appeared in the Sunday 2 September Lloyd's Weekly.

We do not know if Paul's interview appeared before or after Lechmere chose to contact the police.

We do not know if the police did not believe Paul's story, but they should have already had PC Mizen's statement, which confirmed some points of what Paul said.

[Fiver]

Then why did Scobie say that he was a man who acted suspiciously?

The obvious answer is that Scobie said Lechmere acted suspiciously because Scobie was fed a bunch of opinion masquerading as fact.

[Fiver]

So you are saying that Dew would never conclude that Lechmere was middle-aged since he would not trust the parpers when they reported that Lechmere had worked at Pickfords for twenty years plus...?

And now you're putting words in Trevor's mouth.

Guess that's easier than responding to what people actually say.

[Fiver]

And to be fair, Mr Barnett has not spent all that much time trying to convince people that Lechmere was the killer, has he?

I guess you missed how much of his time MrB spends attacking anyone who even suggests that CAL was not the Ripper.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Christer.

Regarding footsteps and their audibility.

Being that you are a daily walker of no mean ability, perhaps you have had the same experience that I have had while on a recent hike.

A few days ago I was walking in a very quiet, densely wooded area. There was no 'ambient' noise whatsoever, beyond an occasional bird. The trail was made of both hard earth and gravel, and was narrow enough that people were forced to walk single-file.

My own foot-steps were quite loud, particularly in this quiet setting, but it was painfully obvious that none of the other people I subsequently encountered and passed had the faintest idea I was behind them until I was within ten or fifteen feet at the most. One even admitted this, and later, an entire family was startled by my 'sudden' approach. In fact, I had been staying twenty yards behind them for three or four minutes, until I came to a wide spot in the trail.

The fact is, the sound of one's own foot-steps and breathing drowns out the noise of anyone else's steps. You do not hear them, unless you specifically stop and listen-- as would be the case of a beat constable stopping and hearing someone up the street on a lonely, quiet night.

Similarly, at one point a man jogging with his dog came up behind me, and they were nearly on top of me before I heard them. When I stopped to let them pass, they were, in fact, making quite a racket on the gravel, but I was oblivious even though I was specifically paying attention to things around me.

I think it is fair to dismiss those who believe Paul would have heard Cross walking thirty seconds ahead of him as mere keyboard pundits. It's not how it works in the real world.

Whether Paul saw Lechmere is a different matter, and would depend on the street lighting.

Cheers, RP

[Fiver]

“Who cares what lechmerians argue, we know he is innocent”

Just about sums it up.

Too bad that's an inaccurate summary.

A better summary would be "Innocent until proven guilty. So far the lechmerians have offered speculation and opinion, but no evidence."

Unfortunately ‘we’ haven’t been able to come up with a single piece of evidence to clear Lechmere. A bit like that diary thread that hasn’t yet found a single anachronism.

You ignoring evidence does not mean the evidence does not exist.

[Fiver]

But someone was.

Apparently you have missed that there are some vocal posters who believe there never was a JTR and the killings are unrelated.

They're a minority, but they exist.

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer.

Regarding footsteps and their audibility.

Being that you are a daily walker of no mean ability, perhaps you have had the same experience that I have had while on a recent hike.

A few days ago I was walking in a very quiet, densely wooded area. There was no 'ambient' noise whatsoever, beyond an occasional bird. The trail was made of both hard earth and gravel, and was narrow enough that people were forced to walk single-file.

My own foot-steps were quite loud, particularly in this quiet setting, but it was painfully obvious that none of the other people I subsequently encountered and passed had the faintest idea I was behind them until I was within ten or fifteen feet at the most. One even admitted this, and later, an entire family was startled by my 'sudden' approach. In fact, I had been staying twenty yards behind them for three or four minutes, until I came to a wide spot in the trail.

The fact is, the sound of one's own foot-steps and breathing drowns out the noise of anyone else's steps. You do not hear them, unless you specifically stop and listen-- as would be the case of a beat constable stopping and hearing someone up the street on a lonely, quiet night.

Similarly, at one point a man jogging with his dog came up behind me, and they were nearly on top of me before I heard them. When I stopped to let them pass, they were, in fact, making quite a racket on the gravel, but I was oblivious even though I was specifically paying attention to things around me.

I think it is fair to dismiss those who believe Paul would have heard Cross walking thirty seconds ahead of him as mere keyboard pundits. It's not how it works in the real world.

Whether Paul saw Lechmere is a different matter, and would depend on the street lighting.

Cheers, RP

The ”research” I made was in a small, narrow cobblestoned street in my home town. I could very easily hear peoples footfalls from far away.

So much for keyboard pundits.

[rjpalmer]

The ”research” I made was in a small, narrow cobblestoned street in my home town. I could very easily hear peoples footfalls from far away.

So much for keyboard pundits.

If you were walking thirty seconds behind them in the same direction in your own loud shoes you wouldn't have heard them, Christer. Of that I am certain.

[Fisherman]

If you were walking thirty seconds behind them in the same direction in your own loud shoes you wouldn't have heard them, Christer. Of that I am certain.

And of that you are wrong. It is not an exercise you should do in a forest, it should be tried out with two walls of houses lining the street.

But I must of course be wrong. I mean, you were sure.

What a waste of time…

[Fiver]

And you haven’t been able to come up with any evidence that he was innocent.

Nobody has to come up with evidence that Lechmere was innocent. Remember that old concept of "Innocent until proven guilty"?

So far, no one has provided any evidence against Lechmere.

So Lechmere remains a potential suspect. And being found with one of the victims shortly after she was attacked gives him a head start on other suspects. And not providing his full identity in court gives him another leg up.

Those are reasons to put Lechmere on the suspect list. There are other reasons to take him off the list, such as the timings of the Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes murders.

Let me ask you this Trevor: if you’d been doing a cold case review of the WM and it had come to your attention that there was a lock-up cats meat shop just a few yards away from the Pinchin Street arch, that the Charles Cross who had allegedly ‘found’ Nichols’ shortly after her death and whose walk to work took him past Hanbury Street in the early hours was actually named Charles Lechmere, that he had lived in Pinchin Street and that his family ran a cats meat business, would you have paid him a visit?

The Whitechapel Murderer?

You're starting with an assumption already. Both the police and the medical examiners concluded that the Torso Killer and the Ripper were different killers.

The Nichols case is totally irrelevant to anything about the Pinchin Street remains. Lechmere hadn't lived on Pinchin Street for at least 17 years. The first record on anyone in his family being in the cats meat business appears to be his mother in 1891. And we don't know who was using the cats meat vendor sheds in 1889.

Also, the neighborhood was searched by the police.

"A general search of the whole neighbourhood had taken place, but up to the present time there was no clue at all." - Inspector Charles Pinhorn

"Naturally, the whole of the available police and detective forces were quickly on the spot, surrounding the arches, and inquiring at all the adjacent houses, while another force tested a recently-advanced theory, by searching all the cattle boats lying in the river—but all with the same result, that there is at present absolutely no result." - East London Observer Saturday, 14 September 1889

"The police also believe that the body could not have been brought far, as, owing to the bad odour arising from it, the carrier of the burden would have been notices and probably stopped. They are therefore making a house to house search in the neighbouring and surrounding streets where the body was found." -Times Wednesday, 11 September 1889

"All persons living in Pinchin street have been closely questioned, but these deny all knowledge of having seen anything unusual in the street on the previous night, or, in fact, at any time. The arches which run along the street belong to the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Company. During the search in the neighbouring streets a piece of cloth stained with blood was found, but its connexion with the dead woman is not certain." -Times Wednesday, 11 September 1889

"Search has also been made to endeavour to trace the missing portions of the body, and every likely spot where it might be concealed has been searched, but with as little success as in the other instances." -Times Thursday, 12 September 1889

"It is believed the head and legs are hidden in some place in the immediate neighbourhood of where the trunk was found, and the detectives are still busily engaged in searching all spots likely to afford a clue to their whereabouts." -Times Friiday, 13 September 1889

[Fiver]

Fresh, raw meat arrived at Broad Street every day.

Where is your evidence that Pickfords only carried ‘processed’ meat?

"Ma Lechmere ran a cat’s meat shop selling horse meat that she had obtained already boned and cooked from either Harrison, Barber or one of the smaller cat’s meat wholesalers who imported cooked horse meat from the provinces." - Mr Barnett

"I have seen references to wagons loaded with cooked provincial horse meat standing outside Liverpool Street Station - next door to Broad Street Station interestingly.' - Mr Barnett

"Here’s the Stepney Medical For Health describing the trade in horseflesh.

“Dr Thomas states that the bulk of horseflesh sold in London comes from the country, but from sixty to seventy tons a week are produced by a firm of knackers in London itself. With the exception of three firms, the trade is in the hands of East-end purveyors who import seventy-give to eighty tons per week and sell it to the various cats meat shops in London. The meat is boned and boiled before being sent by rail.

Witney Gazette 11th June, 1910" - Mr Barnett (emphasis yours)

"180 tons of cooked and boned cats meat was produced for the London market each week - that’s about 400,000 lbs.

Clearly that’s how the trade worked. The cats meat hawkers/shop owners bought the cooked and boned flesh either directly from the knacker’s (only Harrison, Barber in London) or from one of the wholesalers who imported their stock from the provinces. HB themselves also brought in provincial meat." - Mr Barnett

[Fiver]

Here’s a totally hypothetical question, if Charles Lechmere had rented the Backchurch Lane sheds, what name do people think he would most likely have used?

Why would Charles Lechmere rent catsmeat vendor sheds years before he worked in the business?

Why would he rent sheds a mile and a half walk away from his home?

[Fiver]

No, because there is no specific evidential link that connects the torsos to the Whitechapel murders. The torsos and their alleged connection to ther WM is just another misguided theory invented by Fish

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Fisherman has swallowed the theory hook, line, and sinker; but he did not invent the theory that the Torso killer was the Ripper. The idea was circulated at the time of the murderers, though both the police and the medical experts concluded they were two separate killers.