Evidence of innocence

[Greenway]

So lets ask the obligatory question: If Lechmere was checked out, why is it that the police calls him Cross in their reports? As you may understand, he would not be easily traceable by that name, as generations of ripperologists were to find out.

I think the police perhaps checked out some of the witnesses, but only those they found unreliable. And I dont know how deep those checkouts were.

What name did he use at work?

All the best

[Abby Normal]

And it’s a bit more complicated than that, isn’t it, Gary?

”Maybe you would have my respect”—to use your phrase—if you would acknowledge that Barrat’s examples aren’t merely men using their stepfather’s name, but examples were this use is NOT REFLECTED in census returns, electoral rolls, etc.

That is what undermines your argument for CAL. I think most intelligent people will appreciate that.

ah so mr indignant is now being a tad hypocritical implying people who dont agree with him may not be intelligent. I think most intelligent people would appreciate that its a little odd that lech didnt give his more commonly used name in court, or at least give both.

[Mark J D]

I think most intelligent people would appreciate that its a little odd that lech didnt give his more commonly used name in court, or at least give both.

I don't have access to whatever court and newspaper database/s people here use to dredge up old inquest and trial reports: has anyone thought of searching for the various key words that would not only bring up more of the (apparently many) deaths caused by Pickfords cart drivers, but would also indicate whether the driver's address was normally revealed in court, and whether a real name would be quoted as well as an alias in such a case...?

M.

[Fiver]

Actually, M., I think Pickfords would have been very keen to see that no blame attached to their employee and through him to the company. Their drivers were notorious for driving recklessly and causing accidents and as a result the company had to pay out thousands in compensation.

Sounds like Pickford's didn't leave much slack in their schedules.

I think it was me who first suggested that they may have had a representative of some kind at the inquest, but that was just a guess on my part.

So you were just playing devil's advocate in Post #1619?

[MrBarnett]

Sounds like Pickford's didn't leave much slack in their schedules.



So you were just playing devil's advocate in Post #1619?

Sounds like London traffic conditions were such that their drivers struggled to keep to them. I imagine they were often late…

I wasn’t playing devils advocate, I was just pointing out that there is no evidence that anyone from Pickfords attended the inquest. The post I was responding to stated it as a fact.

That said, it is my belief that, if they had known about the incident, Pickfords would have kept a close eye on how things played out.

[Fiver]

Can you name one person whom you can be sure knew him as Charles Cross?

Clearly Wynne E. Baxter knew his as Charles Cross. And the jurors at the Nichols Inquest. And the court employees who were present. And reporters and members of the general public. And anyone present at the 1876 Walter Williams Inquest.

Of course that doesn't answer the real questions.

Did the police and the courts also know him as Charles Lechmere?
Did his employers and coworkers know him as Cross or as Lechmere?
Did his neighbors know him as Cross or Lechmere?

So far, all police and court documents use Cross, but we probably don't have all the documents.

Unless Pickfords still has period employment records or the Carman's Union has a period member list, we'll probably never know what they called him.

We're even less likely to know what the neighbors called him. There is a good chance it was both at different times in his life. The information might have existed once in a letter or diary, but it's probably long gone.

[MrBarnett]

Clearly Wynne E. Baxter knew his as Charles Cross. And the jurors at the Nichols Inquest. And the court employees who were present. And reporters and members of the general public. And anyone present at the 1876 Walter Williams Inquest.

Of course that doesn't answer the real questions.

Did the police and the courts also know him as Charles Lechmere?
Did his employers and coworkers know him as Cross or as Lechmere?
Did his neighbors know him as Cross or Lechmere?

So far, all police and court documents use Cross, but we probably don't have all the documents.

Unless Pickfords still has period employment records or the Carman's Union has a period member list, we'll probably never know what they called him.

We're even less likely to know what the neighbors called him. There is a good chance it was both at different times in his life. The information might have existed once in a letter or diary, but it's probably long gone.

Some of the London Carmen’s Trade Union records do still exist.

[Fiver]

Were his family in Herefordshire aware that he was using the name Cross, living in MEOT and working as a carman for Pickfords?

Were his neighbours in Doveton Street aware of his mother’s bigamous marriage to Thomas Cross 30 years previously?

You seem to have an amazing cache of secret knowledge.

You do so love putting words in my mouth. I never claimed any cache of secret knowledge.

His relatives in Herefordshire are irrelevant to my point. They would have had no idea if he was telling the truth.

Whether his Doveton Street neighbors had ever heard of Thomas Cross is irrelevant to my point. You didn't need to know that to put together that Charles Allen Lechmere and Charles Allen Cross both lived and 22 Doveton Street, were carmen for Pickfords, worked at the Broad Street Station, started their shift at 4am, and had been with Pickford's for about 20 years.

Charles Lechmere's use of the Cross surname was unusual, but it was not an attempt to hide his identity from the police, his employers, his coworkers, his neighbors or his family. Charles Lechmere came forward to testify even though neither PC Mizen nor Robert Paul knew him as Cross or Lechmere or any other name. Charles Lechmere gave his home and work addresses at the Inquest. He gave his first and middle names as well as his stepfather's surname.

[Fiver]

God, I envy 5r! Not only does he know exactly when Chapman was killed, he also knows where Charles Lechmere was at that very time.

Your do delight in putting words in my mouth.

I never claimed to know exactly when Chapman was killed. I did show all the witnesses who put it after Lechemre would have been at work.

I never claimed to know exactly were Lechmere was every moment. I pointed out that he had an alibi for the time frame that Chapman was killed.

You trying to rewrite the definition of "alibi" does not change that.

[Fiver]

This is becoming more than absurd.

Where was CAL when Chapman was killed? You obviously know otherwise you wouldn’t claim he had an alibi.

Where was he????

What is absurd is you continuing to badger me on points I already answered, putting words in my mouth, and redefining the word "alibi".

[MrBarnett]

You do so love putting words in my mouth. I never claimed any cache of secret knowledge.

His relatives in Herefordshire are irrelevant to my point. They would have had no idea if he was telling the truth.

Whether his Doveton Street neighbors had ever heard of Thomas Cross is irrelevant to my point. You didn't need to know that to put together that Charles Allen Lechmere and Charles Allen Cross both lived and 22 Doveton Street, were carmen for Pickfords, worked at the Broad Street Station, started their shift at 4am, and had been with Pickford's for about 20 years.

Charles Lechmere's use of the Cross surname was unusual, but it was not an attempt to hide his identity from the police, his employers, his coworkers, his neighbors or his family. Charles Lechmere came forward to testify even though neither PC Mizen nor Robert Paul knew him as Cross or Lechmere or any other name. Charles Lechmere gave his home and work addresses at the Inquest. He gave his first and middle names as well as his stepfather's surname.

So now you claim to know Lechmere’s motivation for using Cross and Cross only? It wasn’t to hide his identity from anyone in any way?

[MrBarnett]

Your do delight in putting words in my mouth.

I never claimed to know exactly when Chapman was killed. I did show all the witnesses who put it after Lechemre would have been at work.

I never claimed to know exactly were Lechmere was every moment. I pointed out that he had an alibi for the time frame that Chapman was killed.

You trying to rewrite the definition of "alibi" does not change that.

In order for you state definitively that Lechmere had an alibi for the Chapman murder you must know when Chapman was killed and where Lechmere was at the time.

Where was he?

[Fiver]

Pickfords was a ‘universal carrier’, they carried pretty much anything you could imagine - including butcher’s meat and horseflesh. And where would the horseflesh that arrived at Broad Street have been taken? You must know the answer to this to support your ‘alibi’ claim. It couldn’t possibly have been anywhere to the east of the City, could it?

What is your obsession with horseflesh? Pickford's was "universal carrier". They were not a butchers or slaugherhouses. They transported meat - they did not process meat. Most of what they carried was not meat - I've shown this with various period sources. If they carried meat, it was processed meat, not raw bleeding chunks of flesh. You do realize this was an era where there were health laws about meat processing and transport? You do realize that meat could be frozen, smoked, boiled, etc? You do realize it would be packaged to try to prevent any leakage onto other goods or the cart itself?

Where and when Pickford's received horseflesh is irrelevant to my point. Where it and when it was delivered is also irrelevant to my point.

Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.

[MrBarnett]

What is your obsession with horseflesh? Pickford's was "universal carrier". They were not a butchers or slaugherhouses. They transported meat - they did not process meat. Most of what they carried was not meat - I've shown this with various period sources. If they carried meat, it was processed meat, not raw bleeding chunks of flesh. You do realize this was an era where there were health laws about meat processing and transport? You do realize that meat could be frozen, smoked, boiled, etc? You do realize it would be packaged to try to prevent any leakage onto other goods or the cart itself?

Where and when Pickford's received horseflesh is irrelevant to my point. Where it and when it was delivered is also irrelevant to my point.

Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.

Fresh, raw meat arrived at Broad Street every day.

Where is your evidence that Pickfords only carried ‘processed’ meat?

[Fiver]

A shift is not just a start time. It’s the period between a start and finish time. And it can vary from day to day.

Did you miss that I posted the 1891 article that showed Pickford's carman worked 14 to 18 hour days? And that even before that I had stated that shift lengths vary for delivery drivers? To quote you - do try and keep up.

Do you somehow imagine that all Pickford’s carmen were monitored from the moment their shift started until the moment it ended?

Again you put words in my mouth. I never claimed carmen were monitored "from the moment their shift started until the moment it ended".

Is being constantly monitored the entire time your definition of an alibi? If so, it's a rather poor definition.

As I have already repeatedly stated, Pickford's often assigned "van guards" or "van boys" to prevent pilferage by the general public or their own carmen. The Old Baiely records, which I have cited before, are full of examples.

Pickford's drivers were given a schedule of pickups and deliveries. Those pickups and deliveries were witnessed and signed for. Strange time gaps would be noticeable. And every pickup and delivery would be a chance for one, possibly several people, to notice unexplained bloodstains on the driver. Pickfords was a general goods service, not a slaughterhouse.