Evidence of innocence

[Fiver]

Well either Lechmere was a narcissist, who badly wanted recognition for the ripper and torso crimes, or he went to the grave not giving two hoots that the police had failed to connect them. He didn't need to sign a confession if he wanted to remain Mr Nobody, but he could at least have written to the papers anonymously, explaining how his 'clear' messages had gone unheeded.

Colin Ireland telephoned the police in his frustration that they had failed to connect his victims to a single killer.

Love,

Caz
X

It's Schrodinger's Suspect again - Fishermen's version of Lechmere is simultaneously obsessed with getting "credit" for the Torso Killings, yet he spends 30 years doing nothing to tie the two series of murders together.

[Fiver]

"Den som gräver en grop åt andra faller ofta själv däri."

In English? Of course! "He who digs a hole in the ground for others has a tendency to end up in it himself."

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

[MrBarnett]

Local coppers weren’t afforded much respect in Tiger Bay - in fact, they were occasionally beaten to a pulp when they tried to interfere with the activities of the Tigresses and their menfolk. As someone who interfered with their business, I doubt Thomas Cross would have been very popular with the Tigresses and their minders. And consequently his adolescent stepson would probably have been considered fair game for ridicule and teasing.

Or perhaps not. Perhaps Charles Lechmere grew up in Tiger Bay in blissful ignorance of its notoriety, secure in the loving bubble of his family.

[Fiver]

Local coppers weren’t afforded much respect in Tiger Bay - in fact, they were occasionally beaten to a pulp when they tried to interfere with the activities of the Tigresses and their menfolk. As someone who interfered with their business, I doubt Thomas Cross would have been very popular with the Tigresses and their minders. And consequently his adolescent stepson would probably have been considered fair game for ridicule and teasing.

Or perhaps not. Perhaps Charles Lechmere grew up in Tiger Bay in blissful ignorance of its notoriety, secure in the loving bubble of his family.

From what I can find "Tiger Bay" was south of Cable Street and near Ratcliffe Highway. That would mean Charles Lechmere grew up not far from "Tiger Bay", but not actually in it. Have you got a source that says differently?

[Abby Normal]

I kind of agree with you in principle. What befuddles us might have held some personal or ritual significance to the killer. But it's not a working hypothesis. If we're using signature elements and patterns of behaviour to connect murders, we should also flag up when it breaks with convention. Why would a killer who removed organs and eviscerated his victims neglect to do either on this one? Time was not a factor here. He willfully chose not to do it.

Either way, I feel there is more going on here with the Torsos. The fact there are three separate reports of the dumping sites being predicted before they were found is startling. Once would be a fluke, twice would be coincidence, but three times is a trend. But who was feeding this information and why? Was it some form of mindgames or thrill-seeking? Was John Cleary just a stooge or was he involved on some level?

Hi Harry

Why would a killer who removed organs and eviscerated his victims neglect to do either on this one? Time was not a factor here. He willfully chose not to do it.

who knows? perhaps he was planning on it and didnt follow through on it for wahtever reason. perhaps after Kelly extensive mutilations and organ removal, he was satisfied with the ultimate fullfillment of that part of his sick fantasy? that being said-it did have the ripper signature gash down the middle and was dumped in ripper territory so the factual links are still there.

Either way, I feel there is more going on here with the Torsos. The fact there are three separate reports of the dumping sites being predicted before they were found is startling. Once would be a fluke, twice would be coincidence, but three times is a trend. But who was feeding this information and why? Was it some form of mindgames or thrill-seeking? Was John Cleary just a stooge or was he involved on some level?

[/QUOTE]

Yes I somewhat agree with this too. but it dosnt preclude the two series being by the same man/men, or even lech being involved for that matter. I knew there were two torsos predicted, was there a third? can you refresh my memory-what were the three predicted again?

[MrBarnett]

From what I can find "Tiger Bay" was south of Cable Street and near Ratcliffe Highway. That would mean Charles Lechmere grew up not far from "Tiger Bay", but not actually in it. Have you got a source that says differently?

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...7492-tiger-bay

[MrBarnett]

An 1861 article about Frederick Street, one of the streets known as Tiger Bay, contains this description of it:

“Imagine a street of about forty houses, say about twenty on each side, at the doors of which are sitting, lolling, or standing dirty, brazen-faced women, with their dishevelled hair hanging about their shoulders, and who are in converse, oftimes in language unfit for ‘ears polite’, with others of their own sex who are leaning, in a state of semi-nudity, out of the dingy uncleansed windows. Here and there may be seen the tall ungainly form of one of their bullies, stolidly smoking a short dirty pipe; or uttering fierce imprecations on some poor unfortunate who has given him her last coin for the purpose of procuring “a pint”. A shoal of ragged, stockingless, precocious urchins are playing amid the mud and filth of the gutter, or forming a “thief school” under the patronage of approving nods from grim-featured, sallow-cheeked men, whose hair betrays evidence of having been lately cut at the national expense. Towards nightfall the scene changes. The pale, haggard-faced women, with their ragged dirty dresses, uncombed hair and slatternly appearance disappear; and in their stead may be seen the gaudily-attired, painted and smirking damsels of the streets who are about to roam forth in search of prey.”


Frederick Street was the next street to Thomas Street where the ‘Cross’ family were living at the time. There are a couple of press reports about Thomas Cross becoming entangled with the Tigresses of Tiger Bay.

My contention is that Lechmere’s mother is likely to have warned her adolescent son to steer clear of the bad streets, bad men and bad women of their neighbourhood. RJ, or Sir Galahad as I like to think of him, considers that a dreadful calumny against Maria.

[MrBarnett]

From what I can find "Tiger Bay" was south of Cable Street and near Ratcliffe Highway. That would mean Charles Lechmere grew up not far from "Tiger Bay", but not actually in it. Have you got a source that says differently?

There was more than one Tiger Bay. You have probably only found one of them: Bluegate Fields, which straddled STGITE and Shadwell at the eastern end of the Highway.

[Mark J D]

... There are a couple of press reports about Thomas Cross becoming entangled with the Tigresses of Tiger Bay...

Holy hell! Really??? Are they on here?

M.

[MrBarnett]

Holy hell! Really??? Are they on here?

M.

Somewhere on JTRForums. I’ll see if I can find them.

[Trevor Marriott]

Once you prove that they permanently watched Lechmere throughout that fall, your dreams can all come true, Trevor!

But again you cannot prove they didnt.

According to you there were clearly enough grounds for the police to suspect him and check out his initial account which clearly they did and having checked him out they eliminated him from suspicion and again you cannot prove anything to the contrary

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

Frederick Street was the next street to Thomas Street where the ‘Cross’ family were living at the time. There are a couple of press reports about Thomas Cross becoming entangled with the Tigresses of Tiger Bay.

I have also found a mention to Brunswick Street, whcih is a couple blocks east of Berner Street, in relation to Tiger Bay.

Looks like Doveton Street was a significant step up in neighborhood.for the Lechmeres.

Thank you for the information.

[Fiver]

There was more than one Tiger Bay. You have probably only found one of them: Bluegate Fields, which straddled STGITE and Shadwell at the eastern end of the Highway.

That's the one that I found. Again, thanks for the information.

[MrBarnett]

I have also found a mention to Brunswick Street, whcih is a couple blocks east of Berner Street, in relation to Tiger Bay.

Looks like Doveton Street was a significant step up in neighborhood.for the Lechmeres.

Thank you for the information.

By the 1880s the brothels had largely gone from the area, although there were a few still in Brunswick Street. Bluegate Fields also had only a shadow of its former notoriety. If there was an East End ‘Tiger Bay’ then it was in Pennington Street and its ‘Hills’ (including Breezers Hill) and across the Highway in Ship Alley.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks to Dave (DJA) for posting tbe Goad map of Cable Street showing the two addresses connected to Joe Forsdike in 1889: 147 on his death cert and 139 on his burial record.

They were both shops it seems. 147 seems to have been two shops at the same address.

How many premises might old Chucky have had access to?