Evidence of innocence

[Fisherman]

I think this man was possibly John Arnold. It is almost exactly the same story as his, a year earlier.

What annoys me a bit is how in the Pinchin Street case it was said that a murder had taken place in Backchurch Street, and then the victim was found in adjacent Pinchin Street instead. And the Whitehall torso was advertised as a murder on the Embankment.
Why not nail the addresses if they were known in advance?

[Mark J D]

I think this man was possibly John Arnold. It is almost exactly the same story as his, a year earlier.

Come on, Jerry! Tell us what you think is going on here, with these weird accounts! We all know you've thought about them! :-)

Bests,

M.

[jerryd]

Sorry Mark.

Sometimes I assume people know about characters in this story that they may not. I am not trying to be cryptic. Like I said, I have laid most of this out in different threads. Do you know the John Arnold story in 1889? He is the man that notified a newspaper office that there was a body to be found near Backchurch Lane? The problem was, she (Pinchin Street torso) wasn't found there until a couple of days after his announcement. The account posted above mirrors the Arnold story very closely.

[jerryd]

What annoys me a bit is how in the Pinchin Street case it was said that a murder had taken place in Backchurch Street, and then the victim was found in adjacent Pinchin Street instead. And the Whitehall torso was advertised as a murder on the Embankment.
Why not nail the addresses if they were known in advance?

Don't you think they were pretty good guesses, Christer? He could have been guessing areas on the other side of town from where they happened. The Pinchin Street arch where the body was found was at the corner of Pinchin Street and Backchurch Lane. The writing on the walls "John Cleary is a fool" was found in nearby Frederick Street. Coincidence? For that matter, how about the R. Harding Davis interview with Inspector Henry Moore where Moore predicted the very arches where the murderer might strike again. And then, the torso did appear in those arches. Strange, indeed.

[Mark J D]

Sorry Mark.

Sometimes I assume people know about characters in this story that they may not. I am not trying to be cryptic. Like I said, I have laid most of this out in different threads. Do you know the John Arnold story in 1889? He is the man that notified a newspaper office that there was a body to be found near Backchurch Lane? The problem was, she (Pinchin Street torso) wasn't found there until a couple of days after his announcement. The account posted above mirrors the Arnold story very closely.

Jerry, mate, I know this, and the other details too! What I want to know is *what you make of it*!! You must have a theory about this!! :-)

Bests,

M.

[jerryd]

Jerry, mate, I know this, and the other details too! What I want to know is *what you make of it*!! You must have a theory about this!! :-)

Bests,

M.

Mark.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but a definite theory can't be formed yet due to a lot missing pieces. There are other people I have researched that seem to fit into all of this somehow, as well. In both series of murders. To write it all in one post is impossible.

With that said, not only did Frederick Wildbore work in the vault where the torso and leg of a victim was found, but his home was on a route that passed by 90% of where body parts were being dumped. When I say passed by, I literally mean he had to throw the arm over a wall from the road he was traveling on. Or throw a thigh over the hedge to the Shelly Estate which was also accessible from that same road. Or throw parts from any of the many bridges that crossed the Thames on his way to or from home. All circumstantial, but the details I provided earlier about how he announced the torso in Whitehall makes one wonder. At least it does me.

My theory is very complex about these cases. For example, add into the mix the piece I found about 19 year old Thomas Conway being a recruiter for Charles Hammond at the Cleveland Street brothel. Catherine Eddowes had a son of the same name and age at the time. Then add all the characters of that mess (some people relating to others in both crime series) which muddy the waters even more. So, until I can piece it all together, I must keep saying my theory is incomplete and circumstantial. I will keep you all updated as new information comes along. I promise!

[Joshua Rogan]

Sorry Mark.

Sometimes I assume people know about characters in this story that they may not. I am not trying to be cryptic. Like I said, I have laid most of this out in different threads. Do you know the John Arnold story in 1889? He is the man that notified a newspaper office that there was a body to be found near Backchurch Lane? The problem was, she (Pinchin Street torso) wasn't found there until a couple of days after his announcement. The account posted above mirrors the Arnold story very closely.

Hi Jerry,
Do you think that Arnold's story may have been based on overhearing (or mishearing, or hearing of) Inspector Moore's tour of the East End with an american journalist a short time before the torso was found? The journalist reported in the Pall Mall Gazette 4 Nov that;

"I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station."

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
Do you think that Arnold's story may have been based on overhearing (or mishearing, or hearing of) Inspector Moore's tour of the East End with an american journalist a short time before the torso was found? The journalist reported in the Pall Mall Gazette 4 Nov that;

"I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station."

Hey hey Joshua.

I have actually thought about that. Arnolds first account of who he heard about the dead body from, was a Police Inspector he ran into on Whitechapel Road. He later changed that story to a soldier had told him. But then to have the body appear near there was quite coincidental, no?

[Trevor Marriott]

I assume you mean no serial killers.

It is possible, though unlikely, that victims attributed to the Torso Killer were the work of different killers. It's even possible that some were inconvenient, accidental deaths, like botched abortions.

The MO is much clearer with the Ripper - strangulation, throat slitting, mutilation, and body posing. We can debate if all of the C5 were killed by the Ripper or if other murders were by the Ripper, but clearly the Ripper existed.

No, I assume that the torsos were not victims of homicides

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

Jerry, mate, I know this, and the other details too! What I want to know is *what you make of it*!! You must have a theory about this!! :-)

Bests,

M.

hi mark
just to add to jerrys last post.in a nut shell... so wildbore is his leading candidate for the torsoman but he also beleives two men were involved with tje other being Arnold or possibly lawrence (wildbores co worker). he also dosnt rule out the torso series and ripper series being the same men.

did i get that right in a nutshell jerry?

[John Wheat]

This whole thread thread

[MrBarnett]

I think we discovered that both Wildbore’s and Lawrence’s fathers had committed suicide? Jerry will remember.

[rjpalmer]

This whole thread thread

Agreed. Before it’s over they will have Ma Lechmere carving up the Pinchin Street victim’s legs and selling them as cat’s meat.

Air castle built upon air castle built upon air castle.

She probably didn’t even get into the business until her third husband’s death

[Fisherman]

Don't you think they were pretty good guesses, Christer?

Absolutely, Jerry, there can be no doubt about that! What nags me a little bit is that they are not exact guesses. If Arnold really was in the know, and if there was a plan to dump a dead body in these two respective spots, then why not get it spot on? Thatīs what Iīm after.

He could have been guessing areas on the other side of town from where they happened. The Pinchin Street arch where the body was found was at the corner of Pinchin Street and Backchurch Lane. The writing on the walls "John Cleary is a fool" was found in nearby Frederick Street. Coincidence? For that matter, how about the R. Harding Davis interview with Inspector Henry Moore where Moore predicted the very arches where the murderer might strike again. And then, the torso did appear in those arches. Strange, indeed.

It definitely is. What leaps to mind on my behalf is how I always thought that the killer was looking for publicity; if he was the one supplying the information to Arnold, then it can be interpreted as a wish to fire up the interest in what he was doing.

[Fisherman]

Agreed. Before it’s over they will have Ma Lechmere carving up the Pinchin Street victim’s legs and selling them as cat’s meat.

Air castle built upon air castle built upon air castle.

She probably didn’t even get into the business until her third husband’s death

Yes, itīs all very flippant, is it not?