Evidence of innocence

[Joshua Rogan]

What?!?!? When did that start happening? All the months I've been re-researching this, I've never seen a single reference to a closed pub... Am I reading the wrong inquest testimony??

The Echo 4th Sept carries an interview with Mumford the horse-slaughterer;

"We all kill horses, but I'm left to attend the boilers when my mates are away at night. They always go up the top to the Grave Maurice" (a publichouse half a minute's walk from the slaughter-house, and about a minute's walk from the gateway of Essex Wharf).

"What time?"

"About twenty minutes after twelve they usually start."

"But the house closes then, does it not?"

"No, not till half-past. They go there and have their refreshment, and bring me some back."

[rjpalmer]

He had no reason to come forward if he was the killer, no one saw him there-- he was just trying to be helpful.

Exactly. No one saw him there. He had as much time with Martha as he wanted. Helpful? He's injecting himself into the investigation--common among serial killers. I see Lechmere as far more helpful than Crow--he at least waved down the first pedestrian he could find. Crow steps over a mangled woman and goes off to bed? Total lack of empathy.

fyi-CB entry on him says he was still alive in 1901.

The Casebook wiki entry does not indicate he's alive. It says he's no longer in the family home (Thrawl Street) in 1901. That suggests to me the author had no idea where he was.

Someone who claims he has a photograph of Alfred Crow put his death in 4Q 1892, but I'm not seeing it in the UK, nor does he immediately show up anywhere in 1901.

[MrBarnett]

I’m thinking RJ has his tongue firmly in his cheek…

Or have I misjudged him?

[MrBarnett]

The Echo 4th Sept carries an interview with Mumford the horse-slaughterer;

"We all kill horses, but I'm left to attend the boilers when my mates are away at night. They always go up the top to the Grave Maurice" (a publichouse half a minute's walk from the slaughter-house, and about a minute's walk from the gateway of Essex Wharf).

"What time?"

"About twenty minutes after twelve they usually start."

"But the house closes then, does it not?"

"No, not till half-past. They go there and have their refreshment, and bring me some back."

Yeah, right. Only ten minutes boozing per shift.

Tomkins’s dad was found in an alcoholic coma - from which he never recovered - in or near the yard a week or so after Emma Smith was murdered. His son, on the other hand, was a very moderate drinker and would have nothing to do with the sort of women who turned up at the yard in the early hours. Of course he didn’t.

[rjpalmer]

I’m thinking RJ has his tongue firmly in his cheek…

Or have I misjudged him?

Moi?

Besides being alone with Martha's body at 3.30 a.m., and having a job that put him out on the streets of Whitechapel at night, he has an impressive list of addresses.

1871 - Baker's Row (living with his grandparents--trouble at home?)

1881- Ellen Court, Ellen Street, St. George in the East, which I think must be on the Pinchin Street end.

1888- George Yard Dwellings, the scene of the crime.

1891- Thrawl Street.

I think he may be in Cardiff in 1901. There's an Albert Crow, born Bethnal Green, listed as a 'wire cage maker' --which was Alfred's father's profession---so it seems like a no-brainer.

The odd thing, though, is that he goes Steve McCarthy on me in 1911. The Cardiff man moves back to Bethnal Green, but he gives a very specific birthdate, Oct 1870, which doesn't jive with the birth/baptism records of the cab driver, but it's hard not to believe it's not the same man.

I don't see where he is fundamentally worse than Charles Allen Lechmere as long as we admit we are daydreaming and using the dubious science of criminal profiling.

[rjpalmer]

That should read ALFRED Crow in Cardiff.

[JeffHamm]

The family seems to have had a lot of addresses in that area -- and I mean a lot. I could be wrong, but I think she lived in Maryann St at that precise time. It's five streets south of Dutfield's yard, and two streets north of the Pinchin St viaduct. Oo-er.

Ah, thanks for that. Maryann Street sounds familiar to me, so I must have seen that on the boards somewhere. Appreciate the pointers to it's location.

Maybe I'm just too good at making up stories...

"Sh*t! Got carried away, there! And practically on mum's doorstep, too! Ditch the ripping! Abort! Abort! Oh, hell, what do I do now? Place'll be swarming with Juwes any minute... Got it! I'll do 'a classic' straight away, somewhere else, and people won't think this one was me! Uh, maybe down by ... St Botolph's! Yes: used to see them all there on my way to Broad St when I lived at mum's. Will there be any there on a Sunday morning? Bound to be, with Saturday night drinking coming to an end. And: it points well away from Doveton St. It's brilliant! Mitre Square is bound to be dead quiet at this time. And didn't some git of a nght watchman down there say he just wished he could meet the Ripper? Well, Mitre Square it is, then!"

-- And so Lechmere goes due west; boxes the compass; dumps the apron piece on his direct route back to Doveton St, and next thing you know every geoprofiler is telling you he lives in Sion Square because it's in the middle...

Yes, human creativity is a wonderful thing! The danger, of course, is that we tend to think something we made up is somehow more real than something somebody else made up. Making things up is a great way to form a hypothesis, but hypotheses are a dime a dozen. It's the testing of them, and having the willingness to reject them, that's the hard part.

Oh, and no, geoprofiling (meaning the spatial analysis of crime locations) does not result in "put a pin in the middle." It's a bit more complicated than that (although, to be fair, not all that much more complicated really). Based upon a few approaches, including methods advocated by Rossmo or Canter, Sion Square doesn't show up as a place of interest. I've posted these a few times in various threads so won't duplicate it again here, but if you're interested I'm sure you'll be able to find them.

What?!?!? When did that start happening? All the months I've been re-researching this, I've never seen a single reference to a closed pub... Am I reading the wrong inquest testimony??

"About half past ten, Mary Jane and I went to The Gluepot to spend the fourpence; but the towels were up and he wouldn't let us in. So straight away, we ran round to MacAndrews' -- but there was a sign on the door saying they was closed for All Saints' Day..."

Seriously, mate: when did these pubs close??

M.

The Pubs closed at 12:30. Not sure if that was a local ordinance or federal law? There's sort of reference to that in the Eddowes case when the PC at the station tells her it's too late for her to get more drink as she was released at 1:00 am, after the pubs had closed. Of course I'm sure there would have been places operating after hours, but one would have to have money and Eddowes did not.

I'm not sure what time the pubs were allowed to re-open though. Annie Chapman's murder, around 5:25ish, is of course so long after closing time it wouldn't be related to that. Also, there are some who argue for Mary Kelly being murdered that morning after having been to the pub for a morning ale, which would be a strike against that relationship as well. The notion, though, is that JtR may have been drinking at the pubs, and if so, once the pubs close he would have to leave, putting him on the streets where the crimes occurred - this is of course not proven nor suggested as fact, just an observation.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

Of course, the problem with after-work killing is that in Lech's case a full working day might have him clocking off around 2pm Monday to Saturday, and he'd be walking back (maybe getting a lift part of the way on a mate's cart -- if that was allowable) while the sun was high and the streets were chocker.

Carmen for Pickford's typically worked 14 to 18 hour shifts. It was one of their complaints when they considered going on strike in 1891. So Lechmere typically would have gotten off work between 6pm and 10pm.

[Mark J D]

Carmen for Pickford's typically worked 14 to 18 hour shifts. It was one of their complaints when they considered going on strike in 1891. So Lechmere typically would have gotten off work between 6pm and 10pm.

Mate, I've seen those figures -- the 14- to 18-hour shifts -- on here before, way back; and with all due respect to everyone concerned, I can't make myself believe them. Certainly not the 18-hour-day one: a maximum of four or five hours' sleep six nights out of seven simply isn't survivable. Naturally, I did have a look around online at the time; but I never saw anything to back up that horrifying figure.

I'm not saying I'm right; just that I'm suspicious -- even though no-one has a lower opinion than I of the Victorian capitalist class and its savage exploitation of both human and animal labour. Even the 14-hour day you cite -- totalling 84 hours across 6 days! -- is 16 hours more than I found shown in the graphs of an academic article I dug out at work.

I certainly don't want to fight over this; and I acknowledge that your figures come from a contemporary source. If I ever meet a proper academic expert on the horrors of Victorian wage-slavery, I will of course sit them down for a serious Q&A session...

Bests,

M.

[Abby Normal]

Exactly. No one saw him there. He had as much time with Martha as he wanted. Helpful? He's injecting himself into the investigation--common among serial killers. I see Lechmere as far more helpful than Crow--he at least waved down the first pedestrian he could find. Crow steps over a mangled woman and goes off to bed? Total lack of empathy.



The Casebook wiki entry does not indicate he's alive. It says he's no longer in the family home (Thrawl Street) in 1901. That suggests to me the author had no idea where he was.

Someone who claims he has a photograph of Alfred Crow put his death in 4Q 1892, but I'm not seeing it in the UK, nor does he immediately show up anywhere in 1901.

rj
now your just being silly. crow has absolutely no red flags with his story. unlike the likes of hutch, lech and richardson who do. the whole argument against lech is that he was seen near the body of a freshly killed victim and so he stayed to try and ascertain what paul had seen and try and control the situation. crow if the killer didnt need to do that, or go to the police, because no one saw him.
and crow didnt know she was mangeled. he said he took no notice because it was too dark and people slept there all the time. your a smart guy, please tell me you realize this.

but if i was a copper i would definitely want to rule him out, as he does place himself there near time of death.
maybe you should start a new thread on him?

[Abby Normal]

Moi?

Besides being alone with Martha's body at 3.30 a.m., and having a job that put him out on the streets of Whitechapel at night, he has an impressive list of addresses.

1871 - Baker's Row (living with his grandparents--trouble at home?)

1881- Ellen Court, Ellen Street, St. George in the East, which I think must be on the Pinchin Street end.

1888- George Yard Dwellings, the scene of the crime.

1891- Thrawl Street.

I think he may be in Cardiff in 1901. There's an Albert Crow, born Bethnal Green, listed as a 'wire cage maker' --which was Alfred's father's profession---so it seems like a no-brainer.

The odd thing, though, is that he goes Steve McCarthy on me in 1911. The Cardiff man moves back to Bethnal Green, but he gives a very specific birthdate, Oct 1870, which doesn't jive with the birth/baptism records of the cab driver, but it's hard not to believe it's not the same man.

I don't see where he is fundamentally worse than Charles Allen Lechmere as long as we admit we are daydreaming and using the dubious science of criminal profiling.

exhibit A of the hysterical lech denier. cmon rj your better than this.

[JeffHamm]

Hi all,

Did a bit of searching, and came across this brief history of the opening hours for pubs.

http://pint-of-history.wales/en/opening-hours.php

It indicates the "Beer House Act" of 1840 required pubs to close at midnight, though local authorities could require earlier closing times. And, prior to WWI, opening around 6 am was common. (The 1840 act was a change to the Beerhouse Act of 1830, etc).

This does seem at odds with Joshua's post 931 where the testimony is they go to the pub at 12:20 as it doesn't close until 12:30, as that is 30 minutes past the above indicated required closing time. However, I've seen reference to subsequent acts (The Wine and Beer House Act of 1869, and an amendment to this in 1870) which transferred licensing to local authorities. It may be that these allowed local cities, towns, and regions to also set opening hours but I haven't been able to verify that possibility. Given nobody seems to have batted an eye at the statement the pub closed at half past, then it must have been ok for it to do so.

- Jeff

[Mark J D]

Hi all,

Did a bit of searching, and came across this brief history of the opening hours for pubs.

http://pint-of-history.wales/en/opening-hours.php

-- I have definitely seen a reference somewhere to Spitalfields pubs being allowed lavishly extended opening hours because of the need to cater for the folks who arrived from far away bringing produce to the market at all hours. Yes, really.

As dear old Douglas Adams might have put it: 'Time was an illusion. Closing Time doubly so'...

M.

[rjpalmer]

exhibit A of the hysterical lech denier. cmon rj your better than this.

Ah, the Crow deniers strike again!

This is probably a red-herring. The age is off by a couple of years, but age is not always accurate in these criminal records. It's close--19 instead of 21--but there are 2 or 3 other Alfred Crows in London that could also fit: a night prowler, caught with burglary tools in Clerkenwell on the night of October 15, 1888.

I'm not sure why the case was sent to North London Magistrate's court. Maybe Crow fled south from Dalston and was apprehended in Clerkenwell?

After the case lingers in limbo for a couple of weeks, a warrant is issued on October 29, 1888.





If this is him--and it probably isn't--it does mean he has an alibi for the Kelly murder, because Crow is duly convicted and sent to Pentonville for nine months, beginning on 5 November 1888. He had a prior conviction for petty theft under the name "Alfred Howard" in 1887 at the Waltham Abbey Petty Sessions, but I can't find any further info.

If it's not him, I'll have to fit up his doppelganger.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi all,

Did a bit of searching, and came across this brief history of the opening hours for pubs.

http://pint-of-history.wales/en/opening-hours.php

It indicates the "Beer House Act" of 1840 required pubs to close at midnight, though local authorities could require earlier closing times. And, prior to WWI, opening around 6 am was common. (The 1840 act was a change to the Beerhouse Act of 1830, etc).

This does seem at odds with Joshua's post 931 where the testimony is they go to the pub at 12:20 as it doesn't close until 12:30, as that is 30 minutes past the above indicated required closing time. However, I've seen reference to subsequent acts (The Wine and Beer House Act of 1869, and an amendment to this in 1870) which transferred licensing to local authorities. It may be that these allowed local cities, towns, and regions to also set opening hours but I haven't been able to verify that possibility. Given nobody seems to have batted an eye at the statement the pub closed at half past, then it must have been ok for it to do so.

Hi Jeff,
a closing time of 12:30 certainly makes more sense of Spooner's time estimates in the Stride case. I often wonder if someone incorrectly amended his initial time estimate from 12:30 to 12:00, as the reporter in my earlier post thought, but this wasn't recorded.
There are a few other reports indicating a 12:30 closing time, notably Polly herself seen leaving the Frying Pan at that time on the night of her death.