Evidence of innocence

[FrankO]

I keep saying it - there is never any problem to think up alternative innocent explanations, is there? You are of course right; when two people say different things, one cannot conclude that any of them must be telling the truth whereas the other must lie. To do so, there must be further indications. And that is why I say that Lechmere was the liar - there ARE such indications.

But, Christer, one might argue, there are also indications – and independent of anything Lechmere said or did or didn’t do – that Lechmere was NOT the liar amongst the two.

Mizen is completely responsible for that all on his own. If we are to believe exactly what Mizen said and nothing more or less, then he paints a picture of a copper who didn’t wonder about anything at all. If we are to believe him at face value, he was told very little indeed when he was approached by the two carmen. When you’re told so very little, the logical, sort of instinct reaction would be to ask questions - or to completely ignore what you’re told. Since we know Mizen didn’t completely ignore what he was told (as he did go to Berner Street), the logical thing would have been to ask some questions. Yet, other than “What’s the matter?”, he asked nothing.

Moreover, Mizen was being called away from his beat, so also from that point of view some questions would have been in order (how seriously should he take the person(s) who called him away or how serious was the woman’s situation?). Yet, nothing from Mizen.

Questions like: “Where, exactly, is she lying in Buck’s Row?”, “Was the PC already with her when you arrived?”, “Did you see/take a good look at the woman yourself?”, “Did the woman move?”, “Could she speak?”, “Did she seem drunk?”, “Was she wounded in any way?”, “Did the PC tell you what was the matter with the woman?”, “Did the PC take your name & address?”, “From where are you coming and where are you headed now?”, things like that. Yet, he asks nothing.

In fact, he doesn’t even seem to verbally respond at all to what he has been told, other than perhaps a rather meaningless “Alright”.

And then, after having arrived at the crime spot expecting to find an either drunk or perhaps fainted woman or otherwise unserious situation, his surprise couldn’t have been any bigger when he found out that the woman in question was actually dead and had her throat deeply cut. Yet, he still doesn’t seem to have wondered about a thing. Still no questions from Mizen, who did have the opportunity to speak to Neil, only if he wanted to. After all, together with sergeant Kirby, Neil and he himself brought the ambulance with Nichols on it to the mortuary and so, he would have had several minutes to talk to Neil. Yet, nothing. Or so it seems.

In this sense, I find the fact that he only said at the inquest that Lechmere didn’t say anything about murder or suicide rather striking. It has always sounded to me like a weak sort of complaint, (too) long after the fact.

[Columbo]

But, Christer, one might argue, there are also indications – and independent of anything Lechmere said or did or didn’t do – that Lechmere was NOT the liar amongst the two.

Mizen is completely responsible for that all on his own. If we are to believe exactly what Mizen said and nothing more or less, then he paints a picture of a copper who didn’t wonder about anything at all. If we are to believe him at face value, he was told very little indeed when he was approached by the two carmen. When you’re told so very little, the logical, sort of instinct reaction would be to ask questions - or to completely ignore what you’re told. Since we know Mizen didn’t completely ignore what he was told (as he did go to Berner Street), the logical thing would have been to ask some questions. Yet, other than “What’s the matter?”, he asked nothing.

Moreover, Mizen was being called away from his beat, so also from that point of view some questions would have been in order (how seriously should he take the person(s) who called him away or how serious was the woman’s situation?). Yet, nothing from Mizen.

Questions like: “Where, exactly, is she lying in Buck’s Row?”, “Was the PC already with her when you arrived?”, “Did you see/take a good look at the woman yourself?”, “Did the woman move?”, “Could she speak?”, “Did she seem drunk?”, “Was she wounded in any way?”, “Did the PC tell you what was the matter with the woman?”, “Did the PC take your name & address?”, “From where are you coming and where are you headed now?”, things like that. Yet, he asks nothing.

In fact, he doesn’t even seem to verbally respond at all to what he has been told, other than perhaps a rather meaningless “Alright”.

And then, after having arrived at the crime spot expecting to find an either drunk or perhaps fainted woman or otherwise unserious situation, his surprise couldn’t have been any bigger when he found out that the woman in question was actually dead and had her throat deeply cut. Yet, he still doesn’t seem to have wondered about a thing. Still no questions from Mizen, who did have the opportunity to speak to Neil, only if he wanted to. After all, together with sergeant Kirby, Neil and he himself brought the ambulance with Nichols on it to the mortuary and so, he would have had several minutes to talk to Neil. Yet, nothing. Or so it seems.

In this sense, I find the fact that he only said at the inquest that Lechmere didn’t say anything about murder or suicide rather striking. It has always sounded to me like a weak sort of complaint, (too) long after the fact.

Very, very good point. Does it suggest the newspapers were selective in what they reported? Or was Mizen just weary of what he was told?

Columbo

[SuperShodan]

Why would Lechmere or any other carman be given the day off?

The streets would be packed with people and the butchers he would deliver to would be closed. I would imagine it would be like a modern day bank holiday.

[MrBarnett]

The streets would be packed with people and the butchers he would deliver to would be closed. I would imagine it would be like a modern day bank holiday.

What makes you think he would have delivered to butchers?

[etenguy]

The Lechmerists would probably answer to this that after checking in to work at Pickfords at 4am, he started his tour and parked his cart loaded with meat in front of Millers Court (the same scenario applies also to Hanbury Street), conveniently loading off the harvested organs on the way out, and happily continued his routine day of work. Or somehow like this the story would go.

Which scenario is harder to accept, the above or the scenario in which Nichols was already dead when Lechmere first entered Buck's Row?

Hi Ichabod

I find it hard to believe he went back to collect the organs. I don't think this is a likely scenario but I expect the theory has considered this and has an explanation.

The Mary Jane Kelly murder does pose some questions for the Lechmere theory though.

[IchabodCrane]

Hi Ichabod

I find it hard to believe he went back to collect the organs. I don't think this is a likely scenario but I expect the theory has considered this and has an explanation.

The Mary Jane Kelly murder does pose some questions for the Lechmere theory though.

Hi Etenguy

i agree, some very serious questions, and so does the Hanbury Street Murder.
I actually meant to say with my earlier post that in order to be the murderer, Lechmere would have needed to have gone with his cart to commit the murders in Dorset Street and Hanbury Street, parking the cart outside so to speak, thereby delaying his tour, in case of MJK for a quite prolonged amount of time, and then continuing his routine day of work. Which I am sorry to say but that is just not a very likely scenario. I find it much easier to get my head around the notion that Mary Nichols was already dead when Lechmere entered Buck's Row, and that the actual murderer fled the scene when Lechmere approached.

[Dickere]

Hi Etenguy

i agree, some very serious questions, and so does the Hanbury Street Murder.
I actually meant to say with my earlier post that in order to be the murderer, Lechmere would have needed to have gone with his cart to commit the murders in Dorset Street and Hanbury Street, parking the cart outside so to speak, thereby delaying his tour, in case of MJK for a quite prolonged amount of time, and then continuing his routine day of work. Which I am sorry to say but that is just not a very likely scenario. I find it much easier to get my head around the notion that Mary Nichols was already dead when Lechmere entered Buck's Row, and that the actual murderer fled the scene when Lechmere approached.

But it is far from certain that Lechmere was working on the morning of Kelly's murder, being a kind of Bank Holiday in the area.

[IchabodCrane]

But it is far from certain that Lechmere was working on the morning of Kelly's murder, being a kind of Bank Holiday in the area.

I dont think that Lord Mayor's Day has ever been a public holiday where daytime employees would have a day off. Also the same considerations against Lechmere being JtR apply for the Hanbury Street murder, which happened after Lechmere's start of work on a regular workday (Saturday).

[FrankO]

Very, very good point. Does it suggest the newspapers were selective in what they reported? Or was Mizen just weary of what he was told?

Seeing that even the most elaborate newspaper versions of Mizen’s inquest statement are very concise and that at least half of them were written by different journalists, I think it’s very unlikely that the newspapers were selective, Columbo. But, as Christer himself regularly says: what we have (evidence-wise) is what we go by.

Rather than weary of what he was told, I actually get the impression that Mizen wasn't very interested in being disturbed by these two carmen and that, therefore, he didn't pay as much attention to what he was told as he should have and didn't ask questions. And so, I think that Mizen, after seeing that the woman had her throat deeply cut, knew he hadn't been the best copper he could have been on the night in question and simply wanted this to be known by as few people as possible. All this fits quite well with the notion that Mizen wasn't much interested in being disturbed by the two carmen.

Also striking in this regard is that Mizen wouldn't perhaps have mentioned a number of things if Baxter or the jury hadn't asked questions. He didn't say Paul was also present before the coroner asked about it; only in response to a question he said that Lechmere hadn't said anything about mureder or suicide and he didn't say that he continued to knock up at one house after the short conversation until he was asked about it.

[caz]

Traffic, I imagine. Even now the Lord Mayor's Show closes the City for the procession.

I believe I read somewhere that the Lord Mayor's Show in 1888 was treated much like a Bank Holiday.

One can imagine Mr and Mrs Lechmere taking all the little Lechmeres to watch the parade.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Seeing that even the most elaborate newspaper versions of Mizen’s inquest statement are very concise and that at least half of them were written by different journalists, I think it’s very unlikely that the newspapers were selective, Columbo. But, as Christer himself regularly says: what we have (evidence-wise) is what we go by.

Rather than weary of what he was told, I actually get the impression that Mizen wasn't very interested in being disturbed by these two carmen and that, therefore, he didn't pay as much attention to what he was told as he should have and didn't ask questions. And so, I think that Mizen, after seeing that the woman had her throat deeply cut, knew he hadn't been the best copper he could have been on the night in question and simply wanted this to be known by as few people as possible. All this fits quite well with the notion that Mizen wasn't much interested in being disturbed by the two carmen.

Also striking in this regard is that Mizen wouldn't perhaps have mentioned a number of things if Baxter or the jury hadn't asked questions. He didn't say Paul was also present before the coroner asked about it; only in response to a question he said that Lechmere hadn't said anything about mureder or suicide and he didn't say that he continued to knock up at one house after the short conversation until he was asked about it.

Hi Frank,

You would think that if Cross had lied to Mizen about a policeman being at the scene requesting his attendance, Mizen would at the very least have said something to Neil, such as: "The two carmen said you sent for me, so I came straight here."

Neil: "What carmen?"

Cross would have had no idea, when coming forward, if such a conversation had taken place, instantly alerting the police that something was wrong, and the fact that these two carmen had been together at the crime scene before Neil had arrived and made the discovery. That would arguably have been as bad, if not worse, than Paul finding Cross at the scene.

Love,

Caz
X

[FrankO]

You would think that if Cross had lied to Mizen about a policeman being at the scene requesting his attendance, Mizen would at the very least have said something to Neil, such as: "The two carmen said you sent for me, so I came straight here."

Neil: "What carmen?"

Cross would have had no idea, when coming forward, if such a conversation had taken place, instantly alerting the police that something was wrong, and the fact that these two carmen had been together at the crime scene before Neil had arrived and made the discovery. That would arguably have been as bad, if not worse, than Paul finding Cross at the scene.

Hi Caz,

I would put it likel this: Cross could have had no idea if such a conversation would take place, the moment he planned to feed this lie to the first copper he and Paul would see. In fact, he couldn't even have known that they would not walk into Neil before reaching Baker's Row.

All the best,
Frank

[Columbo]

Hi Frank,

You would think that if Cross had lied to Mizen about a policeman being at the scene requesting his attendance, Mizen would at the very least have said something to Neil, such as: "The two carmen said you sent for me, so I came straight here."

Neil: "What carmen?"

Cross would have had no idea, when coming forward, if such a conversation had taken place, instantly alerting the police that something was wrong, and the fact that these two carmen had been together at the crime scene before Neil had arrived and made the discovery. That would arguably have been as bad, if not worse, than Paul finding Cross at the scene.

Love,

Caz
X

That is definitely a bit of evidence of innocence I think. the two policemen didn't even discuss the cartmen as far as we know. A point in Cross' favor for honesty.

[Dickere]

I believe I read somewhere that the Lord Mayor's Show in 1888 was treated much like a Bank Holiday.

One can imagine Mr and Mrs Lechmere taking all the little Lechmeres to watch the parade.

Love,

Caz
X

Indeed Caz, and when you're used to getting up early for work you've got to fill those hours somehow...

[SuperShodan]

What makes you think he would have delivered to butchers?

He worked for Pickford’s in Broad Street delivering carcasses and such like to Butchers.