Evidence of innocence

[Abby Normal]

Hi Frank.

I think Wildbore had no choice at this point but to reveal the body. Here is the testimony of six witnesses that were in the vault at various times from August 22nd to Saturday, September 29th, 1888. The body was discovered on Tuesday, October 2nd, 1888. All of them claim the body was NOT there prior to the discovery. Most of them used a candle or some kind of light while in the vault.

Morning Advertiser, 23 October 1888

William Brown was the first witness called. He stated, in reply to questions from the coroner, that on the 22nd ult., when engaged with two others in making out the quantities of completed work, he visited the vault where the remains were found subsequently, and in the particular corner, though he made measurements, he did not notice anything particular or observe that the earth had been disturbed. If there had been a parcel there at the time he must have trod upon it. Light was afforded by a paraffin lamp, and the trench in the vault to which frequent reference had been made was dry so far back as the middle of June. He had made a ground plan of the several vaults and of the road leading to them. He saw, on Tuesday, the vault after the discovery of the remains, when the earth was lower in the corner than in the other parts.

Mr. Robert Erant, clerk of the works, said that on the Saturday previous to the finding of the trunk of the body he was on the premises up to three o'clock, but did not go into the vault that day. He had done so, however, the previous day, and did not then notice any parcel there. There were about the place a few rags which the workmen used for rubbing brickwork with when it was pointed.

Richard Lawrence, labourer, 40, Sterndale-road, Battersea, stated that on the Saturday he placed for safety, at the end of the vault, on a mortar board, until the following Monday morning, a basket of workmen's tools, and on the latter day, at ten minutes past six o'clock in the morning, he fetched them out. On neither occasion did he notice anything extraordinary. The tools had not been disturbed in the meantime. A fellow workman (Young) had asked him to take the tools there. About half-past three o'clock that afternoon he saw, for the first and the last time, the parcel of remains as it was brought out into the light. The body might have been there at the time he groped in the dark into the vault, but he was strongly impressed with the idea that it was not.

Alfred Young, carpenters' labourer, stated that on the Saturday, about twelve o'clock, before the finding of the parcel of remains, he went to the vault, taking with him a basket of workmen's tools, and placed it on the mortar board to which the last witness had referred, but he noticed nothing particular in this place. There was no light or lamp.

Mr. A. Franklin, surveyor, stated that on the Friday he had been to the vault measuring work. He did not actually go into the corner where the remains were found, and he noticed nothing in that direction beyond rubbish and some old bricks and stones. If there were a parcel there he certainly thought he should have noticed it, especially if any smell pervaded the place. But he found no offensive smell. Still it was just possible that a parcel which did not give out an offensive odour might have escaped his observation.

Henry Edge, labourer, said he was the last person in the vault on the Saturday before the discovery of the body, and did not see any parcel, though he happened to look specially into the corner, believing that the tools he went to fetch were there; but when he struck a match light he discovered his mistake, and found them on a mortar-board at the corner of the vault, to the left of the trench as one entered.

Now, Wildbore said he was in the vault Monday morning (October 1st, 1888) at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. Brown then told Mr. Cheney, foreman of the bricklayers, who went down and pulled the parcel into the light and discovered it was a body. Upon opening the parcel the men gagged from the smell.

So, two occasions on Monday, October 1st he sees the parcel but says nothing. One more time on the morning of Tuesday, October 2nd he examines the parcel and says nothing. The fourth time he decides to tell the foreman. Interesting to say also, Wildbore was off that weekend. Out of the 3 times he examined the parcel, did he not understand what it was? Or was he thinking his way out of the mess? If he was responsible for the torso being there, he had two choices. 1)Get rid of it or move it so nobody finds it, or 2) Act like he found it and alerted his Boss. also important to note, the men gagged from the smell but Wildbore smelled nothing in the 4 times he examined the parcel?

This is why I think there is something fishy with Wildbore. And Christer, to answer your question about there being a connection with the two series of murders. I do think it is a possibility. After all, in my opinion, and also the opinion of Dr. Neville who first examined the arm found at Pimlico, this victim seems to have been killed very near the date of September 8th, 1888. I differ in that I think there is more than one perpetrator involved.

great stuff Jerry-i think you are definitely onto something with this wildbore fellow! He was probably thinking why dont these other dunces find it!

[Mark J D]

... in my opinion, and also the opinion of Dr. Neville who first examined the arm found at Pimlico, this victim seems to have been killed very near the date of September 8th, 1888...

At which point, I can't help noting that the likely day of death in the Pinchin Street case (torso found September 10th, 1889) is either the 1-year anniversary of Chapman's murder or damn close to it.

M.

[jerryd]

At which point, I can't help noting that the likely day of death in the Pinchin Street case (torso found September 10th, 1889) is either the 1-year anniversary of Chapman's murder or damn close to it.

M.

Yes, the body was found on September 11th, 1889 and thought to have been murdered around the same date as Annie Chapman a year later.

[MrBarnett]

If there were two killers, was it a coincidence that after a lull of several months, they both decided to resume their activities in 1889, and the torso killer just happened to be in the east end when he deposited the remains of his second victim?

[jerryd]

great stuff Jerry-i think you are definitely onto something with this wildbore fellow! He was probably thinking why dont these other dunces find it!

Haha.

Or was Wildbore waiting for this story below to break before he announced his find? A blueprint for what happened in the Pinchin case a year later with John Arnold.

Sheffield Evening Telegraph
11 October 1888

AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY

An extraordinary story is going the round of journalistic circles in connection with the mysterious discovery on the Thames Embankment. It will be remembered that the woman's remains were found on the Monday afternoon of last week. The previous evening, however, a man went to most of the daily newspaper offices, saw the respective subeditors[?] and inquired if they had heard of a woman's body being discovered on the Embankment. The man evidently expected remuneration, but, in accordance with practice, was required to call again after inquiries had been made. Reporters were despatched in hot haste to Westminster, and calls were made at all the police stations and other likely quarters, but without result, no discovery of the kind reported having been made. In less than twenty-four hours the remains of the unknown woman were found between the Embankment and Whitehall at the spot previously described. If this reported discovery was a hoax, and a strange coincidence, it is very singular indeed. Moreover, the man who called at the newspaper offices did not call a second time.

[jerryd]

If there were two killers, was it a coincidence that after a lull of several months, they both decided to resume their activities in 1889, and the torso killer just happened to be in the east end when he deposited the remains of his second victim?

Hi Gary.

Second victim? Or at least 4th victim by that time for the torso man. As far as two killers, I'm not sure about what you mean? I feel more than one man was involved, or in the know.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary.

Second victim? Or at least 4th victim by that time for the torso man. As far as two killers, I'm not sure about what you mean? I feel more than one man was involved, or in the know.

Second in 1889.

Perhaps I should have said two series with different perpetrators.

[Fisherman]

Hi Frank.

I think Wildbore had no choice at this point but to reveal the body. Here is the testimony of six witnesses that were in the vault at various times from August 22nd to Saturday, September 29th, 1888. The body was discovered on Tuesday, October 2nd, 1888. All of them claim the body was NOT there prior to the discovery. Most of them used a candle or some kind of light while in the vault.

Morning Advertiser, 23 October 1888

William Brown was the first witness called. He stated, in reply to questions from the coroner, that on the 22nd ult., when engaged with two others in making out the quantities of completed work, he visited the vault where the remains were found subsequently, and in the particular corner, though he made measurements, he did not notice anything particular or observe that the earth had been disturbed. If there had been a parcel there at the time he must have trod upon it. Light was afforded by a paraffin lamp, and the trench in the vault to which frequent reference had been made was dry so far back as the middle of June. He had made a ground plan of the several vaults and of the road leading to them. He saw, on Tuesday, the vault after the discovery of the remains, when the earth was lower in the corner than in the other parts.

Mr. Robert Erant, clerk of the works, said that on the Saturday previous to the finding of the trunk of the body he was on the premises up to three o'clock, but did not go into the vault that day. He had done so, however, the previous day, and did not then notice any parcel there. There were about the place a few rags which the workmen used for rubbing brickwork with when it was pointed.

Richard Lawrence, labourer, 40, Sterndale-road, Battersea, stated that on the Saturday he placed for safety, at the end of the vault, on a mortar board, until the following Monday morning, a basket of workmen's tools, and on the latter day, at ten minutes past six o'clock in the morning, he fetched them out. On neither occasion did he notice anything extraordinary. The tools had not been disturbed in the meantime. A fellow workman (Young) had asked him to take the tools there. About half-past three o'clock that afternoon he saw, for the first and the last time, the parcel of remains as it was brought out into the light. The body might have been there at the time he groped in the dark into the vault, but he was strongly impressed with the idea that it was not.

Alfred Young, carpenters' labourer, stated that on the Saturday, about twelve o'clock, before the finding of the parcel of remains, he went to the vault, taking with him a basket of workmen's tools, and placed it on the mortar board to which the last witness had referred, but he noticed nothing particular in this place. There was no light or lamp.

Mr. A. Franklin, surveyor, stated that on the Friday he had been to the vault measuring work. He did not actually go into the corner where the remains were found, and he noticed nothing in that direction beyond rubbish and some old bricks and stones. If there were a parcel there he certainly thought he should have noticed it, especially if any smell pervaded the place. But he found no offensive smell. Still it was just possible that a parcel which did not give out an offensive odour might have escaped his observation.

Henry Edge, labourer, said he was the last person in the vault on the Saturday before the discovery of the body, and did not see any parcel, though he happened to look specially into the corner, believing that the tools he went to fetch were there; but when he struck a match light he discovered his mistake, and found them on a mortar-board at the corner of the vault, to the left of the trench as one entered.

Now, Wildbore said he was in the vault Monday morning (October 1st, 1888) at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. Brown then told Mr. Cheney, foreman of the bricklayers, who went down and pulled the parcel into the light and discovered it was a body. Upon opening the parcel the men gagged from the smell.

So, two occasions on Monday, October 1st he sees the parcel but says nothing. One more time on the morning of Tuesday, October 2nd he examines the parcel and says nothing. The fourth time he decides to tell the foreman. Interesting to say also, Wildbore was off that weekend. Out of the 3 times he examined the parcel, did he not understand what it was? Or was he thinking his way out of the mess? If he was responsible for the torso being there, he had two choices. 1)Get rid of it or move it so nobody finds it, or 2) Act like he found it and alert his boss. also important to note, the men gagged from the smell but Wildbore smelled nothing in the 4 times he examined the parcel?

This is why I think there is something fishy with Wildbore. And Christer, to answer your question about there being a connection with the two series of murders. I do think it is a possibility. After all, in my opinion, and also the opinion of Dr. Neville who first examined the arm found at Pimlico, this victim seems to have been killed very near the date of September 8th, 1888. I differ in that I think there is more than one perpetrator involved.

Thanks for this, Jerry. I seem to remember how the issue of the smell/no smell coming from the torso was discussed some year or years ago, and I could not make heads or tails of it. Wasn´t there more people testifying to how the bundle gave away no smell or am I misremembering it?

I myself am a fim believer in a single perpetrator of the deeds, Ripper as well as Torso ones, mainly because I cannot find any example of two people engaging together in evisceration murders. There are a few serial killers who worked in pairs, but it is a rare thing among the "common" serialists too.

[jerryd]

Thanks for this, Jerry. I seem to remember how the issue of the smell/no smell coming from the torso was discussed some year or years ago, and I could not make heads or tails of it. Wasn´t there more people testifying to how the bundle gave away no smell or am I misremembering it?

I myself am a fim believer in a single perpetrator of the deeds, Ripper as well as Torso ones, mainly because I cannot find any example of two people engaging together in evisceration murders. There are a few serial killers who worked in pairs, but it is a rare thing among the "common" serialists too.

Christer.

You remembered correctly. There was Condy's Fluid found on the torso which may mask some of the smell. Different remarks in different papers indicate some people, including Wildbore, could smell it and then others say could not.

[Fiver]

do you even read or try to understand posts? I said old enough to be both torsoman AND the ripper so obviously most if not all of them dont apply as they couldnt also have been the ripper (example-Ostrog has been definitely ruled out as the ripper as he has an alibi-oh thats right-you dont know what one of those are either lol). no wonder people including me have stopped responding to your bs. As Mark JD so correctly put it-These are not good faith posts. far from it. Later

In Post #1095 You said "how bout this jer... lech is the only ripper suspect that agewise could also be torsoman?"

That was your entire post. And it was wrong.

Lechmere is not "the only ripper suspect that agewise could also be torsoman".

Michael Ostrog, John Pizer, James Sadler, Francis Tumblety, Thomas Cream, Frederick Deeming, Carl Feigenbaum, Robert Stephenson, William Gull, James Maybrick, Michael Maybrick, John Williams, Jacob Isenschmidt, Oswald Puckridge, Thomas Barnardo, and L Forbes Winslow were all old enough to have been the Torso Killer.

Of course there is no evidence that any of them were the Torso Killer, just like there is no evidence that Charles lechmere was the Torso Killer.

[Fiver]

or no killers at all

I assume you mean no serial killers.

It is possible, though unlikely, that victims attributed to the Torso Killer were the work of different killers. It's even possible that some were inconvenient, accidental deaths, like botched abortions.

The MO is much clearer with the Ripper - strangulation, throat slitting, mutilation, and body posing. We can debate if all of the C5 were killed by the Ripper or if other murders were by the Ripper, but clearly the Ripper existed.

[Fiver]

They weren’t - make it 350.

Based on period population density, roughly 1000 people lived within 350 yards of where the Pinchin Street Torso was found.

[Abby Normal]

Haha.

Or was Wildbore waiting for this story below to break before he announced his find? A blueprint for what happened in the Pinchin case a year later with John Arnold.

Sheffield Evening Telegraph
11 October 1888

AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY

An extraordinary story is going the round of journalistic circles in connection with the mysterious discovery on the Thames Embankment. It will be remembered that the woman's remains were found on the Monday afternoon of last week. The previous evening, however, a man went to most of the daily newspaper offices, saw the respective subeditors[?] and inquired if they had heard of a woman's body being discovered on the Embankment. The man evidently expected remuneration, but, in accordance with practice, was required to call again after inquiries had been made. Reporters were despatched in hot haste to Westminster, and calls were made at all the police stations and other likely quarters, but without result, no discovery of the kind reported having been made. In less than twenty-four hours the remains of the unknown woman were found between the Embankment and Whitehall at the spot previously described. If this reported discovery was a hoax, and a strange coincidence, it is very singular indeed. Moreover, the man who called at the newspaper offices did not call a second time.

wow incredible stuff here. very very odd. i wonder if this man was wildbore or his accomplice?

[jerryd]

wow incredible stuff here. very very odd. i wonder if this man was wildbore or his accomplice?

I think this man was possibly John Arnold. It is almost exactly the same story as his, a year earlier.

[MrBarnett]

Based on period population density, roughly 1000 people lived within 350 yards of where the Pinchin Street Torso was found.

That’s the density of the SW corner of STGITE/Whitechapel?

Where did you Google that?

Perhaps you can give us the number of able-bodied males with access to secluded premises.