Evidence of innocence

[drstrange169]

>>They will have been goofing off like nobody's business -- and then, in the morning, running round like cockroaches to put together a tale of how they were all doing their duty and everything fitted together nicely.<<

And yet Mizen had goodness knows how many witnesses to say exactly where he was and when, since he was knocking people up.

"Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind, like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind!"

[drstrange169]

Whoops,
Post 3508 should read,
"I'm still waiting for Christer to show us on the map, where those fictitious houses are that somboulists could see out from their windows people fleeing the scene.
I'm also still waiting for the "scientific" explanation of how serious researchers can deduce a time gasp between two unrelated times.

But, as we see, when serious questions are asked the subject get changed."

[Fisherman]

And just as I predicted, there we are: a flurry of posts by Dusty, concerning themselves with everything under the sun - except the question I said what the one he needed to answer.

Now, I have answer for every "point" Dusty tries to make, and I would be more than happy to give them here and now. The problem with doing so, however, is that it would only help Dusty escape the one pertinent question and bog the discussion down into meaningless exchanges about which windows somebody could or could not see a fleeing killer from.

We wonīt do that. If, as he tends to do, Dusty returns and says "Look! Fisherman cannot answer my questions!", it wonīt change things - until he has given me an answer to the one decisive question:

If John Neil discovered the body at 3.45 and if John Thain was called to the site in that same minute, then why is it that Thain did not reach Rees Ralph Llewellyns practice in Whitechapel Road, a two minute trek from the murder site, until around 4.00 (as per the inquest) or possibly at around 3.55 (as per the initial interviews)?

Answer me that in an intelligible fashion, and THEN we can loftily discuss windows!

[Mark J D]

[I][B] And yet Mizen had goodness knows how many witnesses to say exactly where he was and when, since he was knocking people up.

What?!? So now the police who couldn't even be bothered to speak to the residents of Buck's Row are going to investigate the timings of one of their own by asking people who don't have clocks when it was that they were woken up?

Simply staggering. This is just 'response for response's sake', and it is pitiful.

M.

[Fisherman]

I should perhaps warn you, Dusty, not to try the "Fisherman avoids my very difficult questions" angle again; I have already prepared an answer for your various "points", listing and torching your claims as I went along. Itīs on my computer desk. So you can have that, if you want to - after you have provided an answer to why John Thain would have spent up to around a quarter of an hour looking for Dr Llewellyns practice.

[The Baron]

"Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind, like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind!"

This is the most beautiful thing ever written to describe this misguided theory!


Like a circle in a spiral
like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind
like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind


Like a tunnel that you follow
To a tunnel of it's own
Down a hollow to a cavern
Where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving
In a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble
Someone tosses in a stream


When you knew that it was over
You were suddenly aware
That the autumn leaves were turning
To the color of her hair
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel



Beauriful Dusty!



The Baron

[Fisherman]

This is the most beautiful thing ever written to describe this misguided theory!


Like a circle in a spiral
like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind
like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind


Like a tunnel that you follow
To a tunnel of it's own
Down a hollow to a cavern
Where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving
In a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble
Someone tosses in a stream


When you knew that it was over
You were suddenly aware
That the autumn leaves were turning
To the color of her hair
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel



Beauriful Dusty!



The Baron

Yes, ”beauriful” (whatever that is…?)

However, it was not Dusty who wrote the text, it was Alan and Marilyn Bergman. But of course, us lowly posters should be able to contribute our own texts:

Like a frog in his small basin
with no relevance at all
never owing up to facin’
those who know a better call
As the mysteries unwind
fate is always quite unkind
to the Barons boggled mind

See? All it takes is some wit and originality. And it’ s so beauriful!!

[The Baron]

Poor Fisherman..




Dusty posted this, and Dusty Springfield sang this

And Beautiful it is, I wrote it at the first of my post

"This is the most beautiful thing ever written to describe this misguided theory!"

But you couldn't see it

Poor Fisherman, watching everyday the damage Dusty causes to his misguided theory

Very poor Fisherman



"like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind"





The Baron

[rjpalmer]

If John Neil discovered the body at 3.45 and if John Thain was called to the site in that same minute, then why is it that Thain did not reach Rees Ralph Llewellyns practice in Whitechapel Road, a two minute trek from the murder site, until around 4.00 (as per the inquest) or possibly at around 3.55 (as per the initial interviews)?

Hello Fish.

I will, of course, leave this profound question for you and Dusty to hash out, but what should be obvious is that Llewellyn's shifting estimate amply demonstrates why our intricate timelines are folly. Llewellyn didn't think that pinpointing an exact time was important.

And why would it have been? A woman was found dead in the street and a constable fetched him at an ungodly hour. Since he didn't have any notion of trying to trip-up Charles Cross or Robert Paul or PC Mizen by accounting for every passing second of the clock, he--like many witnesses---just gave a rough estimate.

As you note, Llewellyn initially said 'about 3.55,' and no sane person is going to describe 4.00 on the button as 'about 3.55.' It just doesn't happen.

Yet, when he addresses the inquest days later, he now calls it 'about 4 a.m.' This is entirely reasonable and to be expected. 'About 3.55' would also be 'about 4.00' and he obviously didn't think an exact estimate was important. He has no notion of 'missing time,' nor is he trying to reverse engineer the travel times of Paul or Cross or anyone else. It's not important to him, so he's not exact.

Thus, paradoxically, these claims of 'missing time' are unprovable, because our witnesses are only using rough estimates because they weren't as obsessed with creating an intricate timetable as you and I and others may be. That leaves us in the awkward position of trying to squeeze too much meaning out of obvious uncertainties. But you know this as well as I, for it's been discussed for years.

Meanwhile, I can readily imagine it may have taken a few minutes to rouse Llewellyn from his slumber. He then had to light the lamp, put on his trousers, reassure his wife or his mistress or his bedfellow, and push aside the cat with one bare foot before opening his desk drawer and looking at his watch.

[rjpalmer]

I suppose it would be too outrageous to suggest that Thain paused on his way to Llewellyn's surgery to rap on the doors of a few sleepers?

[Paddy Goose]

Bent coppers, bent doctors
On Donner On Blitzen!
Another Yule cometh'
We're stuck here on Mtizen

[Fisherman]

Bent coppers, bent doctors
On Donner On Blitzen!
Another Yule cometh'
We're stuck here on Mtizen

Hooray! Some real wit, at long last. And I wor complaint about Mtizen, since I do understand what it was supposed to say.

[Fisherman]

Hello Fish.

I will, of course, leave this profound question for you and Dusty to hash out, but what should be obvious is that Llewellyn's shifting estimate amply demonstrates why our intricate timelines are folly. Llewellyn didn't think that pinpointing an exact time was important.

And why would it have been? A woman was found dead in the street and a constable fetched him at an ungodly hour. Since he didn't have any notion of trying to trip-up Charles Cross or Robert Paul or PC Mizen by accounting for every passing second of the clock, he--like many witnesses---just gave a rough estimate.

As you note, Llewellyn initially said 'about 3.55,' and no sane person is going to describe 4.00 on the button as 'about 3.55.' It just doesn't happen.

Yet, when he addresses the inquest days later, he now calls it 'about 4 a.m.' This is entirely reasonable and to be expected. 'About 3.55' would also be 'about 4.00' and he obviously didn't think an exact estimate was important. He has no notion of 'missing time,' nor is he trying to reverse engineer the travel times of Paul or Cross or anyone else. It's not important to him, so he's not exact.

Thus, paradoxically, these claims of 'missing time' are unprovable, because our witnesses are only using rough estimates because they weren't as obsessed with creating an intricate timetable as you and I and others may be. That leaves us in the awkward position of trying to squeeze too much meaning out of obvious uncertainties. But you know this as well as I, for it's been discussed for years.

Meanwhile, I can readily imagine it may have taken a few minutes to rouse Llewellyn from his slumber. He then had to light the lamp, put on his trousers, reassure his wife or his mistress or his bedfellow, and push aside the cat with one bare foot before opening his desk drawer and looking at his watch.

Well, it was to be expected - for the naysayers, playing the time confusion card would always be the last resort!

Sadly, it does not work. To begin with, we have coroner Baxter saying that the time the body was found can not have been far off the 3.45 mark since there were many independent data fixing it. And that is the precise way to go about it - the more data the better, as long as the different bits are independent. And they were. So we have a very clear and crisp timing to go by, and that is that the body was found by the carmen at a time that was at or close to 3.45.

Having digested this, we may also establish, with reasonable accuracy, a number of other timings. John Neil must have been in place at around 3.51 at the earliest, because he needed to allow for the carmen to examine Nichols, make their decision and then walk Bucks Row from east to west, before entering the street himself at the Thomas Street junction and walking down to the murder site at normal PC walking pace.

We then know quite well that he flagged down Thain, who managed to arrive at the site, get his instructions and run off for Llewellyn before Mizen appeared at the murder site. And we have a timing for the carmens trek that fits a brisk walking speed quite well, just as we can gauge the time it took Mizen to walk to the site from Bakers Row/Hanbury Street.

In able to allow for pushing the time of the finding of the body towards 3.40, we would need (among other things) for Mizen to be very quick and run the stretch at record time - but if he DID, he would have met Thain at the site, and he didnīt.

And so on and so on - there can be no realistic doubt that the timings we have at hand are fairly accurate, and so we know quite well that Thain must have left the murder spot at around 3.53 or a bit later - and NOT at 3.46 -, meaning that he would arrive - lo and behold - at the approximate time he SHOULD arrive at Llewellyns practice. How extraordinary, eh?

You are trying to salvage as much as you can by suggesting that the doctor did not have a care in the world about what the time was, but letīs face it - the Victorian doctors were rather precise about these things. Compare, if you will, Blackwells 1.16 timing in Berner Street, Phillips' "I was called by the police at 6.20 a.m. to 29, Hanbury-street, and arrived at half-past six" in Hanbury Street, Browns "I was called shortly after two o'clock on Sunday morning, and reached the place of the murder about twenty minutes past two" and, again, Phillips' "I was called by the police on Friday morning at eleven o'clock, and on proceeding to Miller's-court, which I entered at 11.15" - and in the latter case the body was stone cold and long gone, but that did not matter to Phillips who was nevertheless as exact as he could be! So when we look at Llewellyn, who was the Medical Officer to the E and EC Districts, we should expect no less from him. When he said at the inquest that he was called around 4 am, he was called around 4 am - and he had had ample time to ponder the timing before he attended the inquest. Moreover, he would have been closely questioned about it by Baxter when the coroner started to realize that the PC:s timings were off. ALL time parameters will have been checked and checked again.

So, R J, as for cigars, this was not even close! But why, oh why, would we lament that we cannot throw the timings to the wind? Why not instead be happy about how we have reasonably exact timings and a coroner who made it his bussiness to establish, by looking at various independent factors, that the body was found at or close in time to 3.45?

Because, perhaps, itīs a bummer when those who champion another view than our own have the material to support their claims?

[Fisherman]

I suppose it would be too outrageous to suggest that Thain paused on his way to Llewellyn's surgery to rap on the doors of a few sleepers?

Not only that, it would also be in total conflict with how it was stated that Thain returned quickly with the doctor, having spent around ten minutes on the errand.

[Fisherman]

Poor Fisherman..




Dusty posted this, and Dusty Springfield sang this

And Beautiful it is, I wrote it at the first of my post

"This is the most beautiful thing ever written to describe this misguided theory!"

But you couldn't see it

Poor Fisherman, watching everyday the damage Dusty causes to his misguided theory

Very poor Fisherman



"like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind"





The Baron

You wouldnīt have anything to say about the case, for a change? No? You are quite content doing it the kindergarten way? Poor all of us - well, with the possible exception of yourself, of course. We cannot lament what we are not even aware of, can we?