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Why did Lechmere get involved with Paul ?

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  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Let´s make the assumption that Lechmere was the killer of Nichols. This is in line with how Neil and Mizen both stated that she was still bleeding as they saw the body, and it is in line with how she was the one and only victim who had her abdominal woulds hidden from sight.
    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” -Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

    Rather than starting with the assumption that Lechmere, or anyone else, was the killer, we should look at the facts and see if they point towards or away from a suspect.

    If bodies stop bleeding as fast as you have claimed in this or other threads, then the most likely person to have killed Polly Nichols was PC Neil. After all, Robert Paul testified "he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint".

    Nichols clothes were pulled down. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, Robert Paul testified "The clothes were disarranged, and he [Paul] helped to pull them down.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    It may be that it was just rotten luck on his behalf that Paul did not see Lechmere up at the Bath Street brewery, that was well lit, and that he didn´t notice him on the northern pavement, although he would have had the lamp outside Schneiders Cap factory between himself and Lechmere for a long time, meaning that Charles should have been very easy to see.
    We know that Paul saw "in Buck's-row a man [Lechemere] standing in the middle of the road". We do not know how far apart they were at that time - no one asked Paul. We do not know if Paul had seen or heard Lechmere earlier in his walk to work - no one asked Paul.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    The rags could have ended up where they were out of sheer coincidence. Both of them.
    You continue to ignore the Hooper Street rag which was found far closer and sooner to the Pinchin Street Torso - after all it doesn't fit your theory.

    Nothing ties the Goulston street rag to Lechmere. Nothing ties the St Philips church rag to Lechmere or to the Ripper or to the Torso killings.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    It could have been a cruel fluke that the killer did away with Tabram, Nichols, Chapman and Kelly in the very area that was traversed by Lechmere on a daily basis, just as it could have been his bad luck only that had the unknown killer cut Stride´s throat a stone´s thrown from his mothers house. And Eddowes´ditto another stones throw from where he would have passed en route to work for many, many years. Plus it could of course have been a fluke only that the two women who were killed on a Saturday night were the exact two victims that did NOT fall prey along Lechmere´s work route.
    Hundreds of men traversed these streets on a daily basis. So far, you have provided no evidence of any connection between Lechmere and the Tabram, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, or Kelly murders.

    * Tabram was not killed on Lechmere's route to work.
    * Chapman was killed on a route Lechmere might have taken to work, but she was killed an 1 1/2 hours after he arrived at work. Lechmere had an alibi.
    * Stride was killed 2 1/2 hours before Lechmere normally left for work. Eddowes was killed 1 1/2 hours before Lechmere normally left for work. Who gets up 2 1/2 hours early on their day off? Especially when they normally have to be at work at 4am?
    * Kelly was not killed on Lechmere's route to work.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    it may be that Lechmere posessed a common trait of psychopaths: they cannot panic.
    Psychopaths are less prone to anxiety, they are not immune to it.

    "Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others." - Psychiatric Times

    Feel free to provide any evidence of Charles Lechmere showing signs of psychopathy.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    It should also be underlined that we do not know exactly when Lechmere noted Paul.
    Lechmere testified "He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about forty yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from." There is no reason for Lechmere to lie about that.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Once more, the streets were patrolled by PCs on beats, and as has been pointed out, if Lechmere ran and left Paul to note a murder, the fomer may have been passing a PC as Paul cried blue murder. A psychopath, very capable of thinking on his feet, may well have decided that engaging Paul was the better way of getting out of Bucks Row.
    Psychopaths are not know for thinking on their feet. They are known for "poor judgment" and "impulsivity". Real serial killers are not as clever, quick-thinking, or witty as Hannibal Lector. On the whole they're rather stupid.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    By the way, was´t it unlucky for our carman that the other serial killer at large in them days also cut away abdominal walls, cut from pubes to ribs and left a victim with a shallow such cut on her belly in the very street that Charles and his family had always returned to? I mean, just how unlucky can a man get?
    The Ripper and the Torso Killer are different killers with very different MOs. And Charles Lechmere was at work when the Pinchin Street Torso was deposited. Lechmere had an alabi.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Even the fact that he didn´t give the authorities his correct name when he was involved with violent deaths could probably be used by fantasists like me to imply that Charles Lechmere could be the killer.
    Lechmere was using the name Charles Cross in court over a decade before the Ripper killings, so clearly it has nothing to do with whether was the killer. People have suggested several reasons why Lechmere could have used the Cross name - you have ignored all of them because they do not fit your theory.

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Quod est super venari.
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

      "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” -Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
      Off topic here, (sorry Wolf), but how come Doyle gets quoted as the pinnacle of rational thought and reason? The guy believed in paper fairies and all manner of other nonsense. He could write a good reason, but he sure didn't practice it. There's an enigma.
      Thems the Vagaries.....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
        Robert Paul lived in Foster Street, at an address that was around 40 yards up that street from Bath Street, where the brewery was situated. This means that if Lechmere was 40 yards in front of Paul all the time, then he should have passed under the brewery lights at the end of Foster Street just as Paul stepped out from his lodgings. If Lechmere was only 30 yards in front of Paul, then he should have passed under the lights, in plain view of Paul, as the latter had walked ten yards down Foster street in the direction of Bath Street.
        Most people, upon leaving their houses, turn to face the door and lock it. They aren't focused on something 40 yards away that's in the corner of their eye and is only there for a moment.

        Besides, Paul and Lechmere were probably farther apart than that. Lechmere says he heard Paul when he was "about forty yards away". This is sometime after Lechmere had started to slow down and cross the street.

        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
        ... the more poignant matter is that they must at any rate have walked down Bucks Row in close proximity to each other (if Lechmere told the truth), and the Schneiders Cap factory light together with the accoustic disposition of the street would in all likelihood have meant that Paul should have noted Lechmere ahead of himself - if Lechmere was really there.
        Obviously Lechmere really was there. A ghost didn't stop Robert Paul.

        Paul says he saw Lechmere in front of him. We don't know how far that distance was - nobody asked Paul at the time.

        The Sadok Schneider and Sons Cap factory was about 100 feet further down Durward Street. It can't have provided much light. PC Neil said "it was dark at the time, though there was a street lamp shining at the end of the row" and he had to examine "the body by the aid of my lamp".

        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
        The fact that Paul says that he noted Lechmere as he himself approached Browns Stable Yard is totally in line with Lechmere having lied about things. Unless, of course, it´s them coincidences again ...
        Nothing in Paul's statement is "totally in line with Lechmere having lied about things". Paul said "as he was going to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road". Paul does not say what that distance was, so his statement does not disprove anything about Lechmere's statemen.

        Comment


        • >>Have I accidentally landed on a different planet?<<

          When it comes to Christer's posts,

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk
          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • >>The Sadok Schneider and Sons Cap factory was about 100 feet further down Durward Street. It can't have provided much light. PC Neil said "it was dark at the time, though there was a street lamp shining at the end of the row" and he had to examine "the body by the aid of my lamp".<<

            Absolutely correct, but you must remember, like a moth, Christer is fixated with lights.

            Ironically, the ONLY bright light in the area was in Brady Street, which means Paul and anybody else would have been highly visible as they turned into Bucks Row. Which is probably why the killer ran off when they saw Lechmere turn into Bucks.
            dustymiller
            aka drstrange

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

              "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” -Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

              Rather than starting with the assumption that Lechmere, or anyone else, was the killer, we should look at the facts and see if they point towards or away from a suspect.

              If bodies stop bleeding as fast as you have claimed in this or other threads, then the most likely person to have killed Polly Nichols was PC Neil. After all, Robert Paul testified "he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint".

              Nichols clothes were pulled down. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, Robert Paul testified "The clothes were disarranged, and he [Paul] helped to pull them down.



              We know that Paul saw "in Buck's-row a man [Lechemere] standing in the middle of the road". We do not know how far apart they were at that time - no one asked Paul. We do not know if Paul had seen or heard Lechmere earlier in his walk to work - no one asked Paul.



              You continue to ignore the Hooper Street rag which was found far closer and sooner to the Pinchin Street Torso - after all it doesn't fit your theory.

              Nothing ties the Goulston street rag to Lechmere. Nothing ties the St Philips church rag to Lechmere or to the Ripper or to the Torso killings.



              Hundreds of men traversed these streets on a daily basis. So far, you have provided no evidence of any connection between Lechmere and the Tabram, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, or Kelly murders.

              * Tabram was not killed on Lechmere's route to work.
              * Chapman was killed on a route Lechmere might have taken to work, but she was killed an 1 1/2 hours after he arrived at work. Lechmere had an alibi.
              * Stride was killed 2 1/2 hours before Lechmere normally left for work. Eddowes was killed 1 1/2 hours before Lechmere normally left for work. Who gets up 2 1/2 hours early on their day off? Especially when they normally have to be at work at 4am?
              * Kelly was not killed on Lechmere's route to work.



              Psychopaths are less prone to anxiety, they are not immune to it.

              "Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others." - Psychiatric Times

              Feel free to provide any evidence of Charles Lechmere showing signs of psychopathy.



              Lechmere testified "He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about forty yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from." There is no reason for Lechmere to lie about that.



              Psychopaths are not know for thinking on their feet. They are known for "poor judgment" and "impulsivity". Real serial killers are not as clever, quick-thinking, or witty as Hannibal Lector. On the whole they're rather stupid.



              The Ripper and the Torso Killer are different killers with very different MOs. And Charles Lechmere was at work when the Pinchin Street Torso was deposited. Lechmere had an alabi.



              Lechmere was using the name Charles Cross in court over a decade before the Ripper killings, so clearly it has nothing to do with whether was the killer. People have suggested several reasons why Lechmere could have used the Cross name - you have ignored all of them because they do not fit your theory.



              Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
              ironic you quote doyle. lol fact:

              there are no such things as fairies.

              sherlock holmes was fictional.

              jack the ripper was real.

              lechmere was seen hovering near a freshly killed ripper victim.

              no one else was seen near her near tod.

              lech has a descrepency with what he told a police officer about it.

              lech gave a different name to police to what he was commonly was known as.

              lechs trek to work brought him near other victims near there tod.

              lechs mum lived near murder sites imcluding the pinchin torso.

              i cant spell for shite

              i had a rough day and am now drunk as a monkey.

              i hope england beats italy.

              **** off.
              Last edited by Abby Normal; 07-09-2021, 02:25 AM.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by caz View Post

                I'm confused, Fishikins.

                Not having read your book, I was expecting you to say it is full to overflowing with 'evidence for the carmans guilt'. Yet here you are, apparently very cross with Dusty for not providing you with a 'single piece' of 'genuine' evidence for Lechmere's guilt, implying there is none in your book and you are getting desperate for examples - for the sequel perhaps?

                Have I accidentally landed on a different planet?

                Love,

                Mrs Logic
                X
                Mrs Logic,

                You might care to re-read what you have written here. I think you may have used "for' when you meant "against". Your mistake makes your post look like nonsense and your tone supercilious, which I feel sure was not your intention.

                Cheers, George

                Comment


                • Ha! George, I'm afraid it's you that might care too read Caz's post again. The mistake was Christer's, Caz was just pointing out his mistake.

                  Post #109 Christer wrote, "... can you produce a single piece of genuine evidence for the carmans guilt? " (my emphasis).

                  Whilst I've got you attention, can i ask where you heard that Bath Street was brightly lit?
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

                  Comment


                  • So, I popped in here today, suspecting that the one response I would have gotten from Dusty would be composed out of wriggling, slithering, accusations of all sorts about me - but not a single example of anything that would constitute a genuine implication of innocence on the carmans behalf, and that I had ommitted to write in my book.

                    And lo and behold! What I find from Dustys side is wriggling, slithering and accusations of all sorts about me - but not a single example of anything that would constitute a genuine implication of innocence on the carmans behalf, and that I had ommitted to write in my book.

                    Which is why I consider this "debate" at a (sad) end, and why I will not write any further posts addressed to Dusty in this errand. I have had my answer. I may well discuss some other topic with Dusty on other threads, where he can wriggle, slither and accuse me of all sorts of other things (or the same things as here, for that matter).

                    As for Fivers, Kattrups and John Wheats efforts, I can only say that I am genuinely sad to have made them so bitter. To Caz: Yes, I misformulated myself (well spotted!), and that also tells me one thing; when I cannot bring myself to keep up any real interest, it is time to leave the thread.

                    Last, but not least: There is no example of anything that functions as genuine evidence that the carman was innocent. But there are those who wish to uphold a false picture of how there is such evidence. They are all welcome to step forward and produce it.

                    So far, though, and it´s been more than a decade now, nobody has.

                    A very good morning to you all.
                    Last edited by Fisherman; 07-09-2021, 05:43 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                      Ha! George, I'm afraid it's you that might care too read Caz's post again. The mistake was Christer's, Caz was just pointing out his mistake.

                      Post #109 Christer wrote, "... can you produce a single piece of genuine evidence for the carmans guilt? " (my emphasis).

                      Whilst I've got you attention, can i ask where you heard that Bath Street was brightly lit?
                      Ah, my mistake. Apologies to Caz.

                      Thinking back it was probably Christer. I've done some research since and while I didn't find any corroborating statements, the historical map shows a large open area on the corner of Bath and Brady which I thought might be a loading area and therefore well lit. Just speculation which noone seems to think is relevant. My other goal was to try to determine whether the clock tower at the brewery was multi-faced or chimed. No joy for information in that regard either.

                      Cheers, George

                      Comment


                      • The picture I have, 1889, shows the clock on the front of the building. Only visible from Whitechapel Road. It's inset into the building, so doubt it chimed.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2021-07-09 at 4.05.31 pm.png Views:	0 Size:	35.4 KB ID:	762052
                        dustymiller
                        aka drstrange

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                        • Click image for larger version  Name:	Albion1.jpg Views:	0 Size:	65.6 KB ID:	762054
                          From the cars I'd estimate 1960's so maybe post 1888 tower?

                          Edit: More likely this tower added in the extensions 1894-1902.

                          Cheers, George
                          Last edited by GBinOz; 07-09-2021, 06:43 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Definitely not there in 1888, my picture is only contemporary one I could find.
                            dustymiller
                            aka drstrange

                            Comment


                            • Come to think of it, we should of course try to get to the bottom of the question about clearing evidence on Charles Lechmere´s behalf. It would not be fair to deny those who are sitting on that evidence a space to publish it on, and to that end, I am starting a new thread called "Evidence of innocence" on the Lechmere space under "Suspects".
                              My personal guess is that among the more proinent contributions, we may see "Chapman was killed at 5.30!", "No serial killer will kill en route to work!" and "He would never have stayed put in Bucks Row when Paul arrived, he would have run!", those three suggestions having dominated the thinking on the naysayer side for many a year by now. But we shall see.

                              Did I leave out important evidence of innocence on Lechmere´s behalf in my book, or did I simply abstain from listing the many thousand alternative innocent explanations that one may think up on a summer´s day?

                              Let´s see.

                              Comment


                              • I said as much scattered over the pages of this site over the years, But he probably says it more succinctly than I.

                                https://www.orsam.co.uk/breakingpoint.htm
                                dustymiller
                                aka drstrange

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