Framing Charles

[Trevor Marriott]

Address?

The press managed to unearth it from somewhere, unlike the 1876 case when that Pickford’s Charles Cross’s address was never made public.

You and others are making to big an issue on this name he used.

You have to accept that the authorities were happy for him to give that name and we see nothing about him being questioned, and we see no evidence of any suspicion against him. other than a 21st century mystery created by Christer and his wingman Edward Stow, in an attempt to bolster this deluded theory.

Let the poor man rest in peace.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Astatine211]

If Lechmere wasn't JtR maybe the reason he used the surname Cross rather than Lechmere was in order to protect his wife and children. He may have worried that if the murderer knew him and his family, they might have become targets. Therefore using a name difficult to identify, which he could technically use under oath, made sense to him to obscure his identity.

Nichols was the first of the C5 so JtR's type of victim and radius wasn't known by anyone. For all Lechmere knew there could've been a violent murderer living within half a mile of his family, who could've easily known his family. As has already been established on this thread, Charles Cross was an extremely common name whereas Lechmere was a very unique name, and if the murderer read the newspapers of the inquest, they would have known it was Lechmere who found the body if he used his real surname, and if they lived in the area there was every possibility they would know Lechmere's wife and children due to how unique the surname was. Maybe he was worried that JtR thinks he saw him putting him at risk. I'm kinda finding it difficult to explain what I mean so let me give a scenario.

You live in a remote large village, where your wife works and your children go to school, you find a body which has been brutally murdered. There is a high chance the murderer lives in the same village as you. Would you want your name being plastered everywhere as the person who discovered the body, possibly putting your wife and children in the sights of the murderer?

Maybe Lechmere's fears of his family being targeted by Jack weren't even outside the realm of possibility, there are many theories about if Eddowes was targeted because she claimed to know who Jack was and there are theories of premeditation in the murder of MJK.

[Abby Normal]

If Lechmere wasn't JtR maybe the reason he used the surname Cross rather than Lechmere was in order to protect his wife and children. He may have worried that if the murderer knew him and his family, they might have become targets. Therefore using a name difficult to identify, which he could technically use under oath, made sense to him to obscure his identity.

Nichols was the first of the C5 so JtR's type of victim and radius wasn't known by anyone. For all Lechmere knew there could've been a violent murderer living within half a mile of his family, who could've easily known his family. As has already been established on this thread, Charles Cross was an extremely common name whereas Lechmere was a very unique name, and if the murderer read the newspapers of the inquest, they would have known it was Lechmere who found the body if he used his real surname, and if they lived in the area there was every possibility they would know Lechmere's wife and children due to how unique the surname was. Maybe he was worried that JtR thinks he saw him putting him at risk. I'm kinda finding it difficult to explain what I mean so let me give a scenario.

You live in a remote large village, where your wife works and your children go to school, you find a body which has been brutally murdered. There is a high chance the murderer lives in the same village as you. Would you want your name being plastered everywhere as the person who discovered the body, possibly putting your wife and children in the sights of the murderer?

Maybe Lechmere's fears of his family being targeted by Jack weren't even outside the realm of possibility, there are many theories about if Eddowes was targeted because she claimed to know who Jack was and there are theories of premeditation in the murder of MJK.

hi ast
i said the same thing along time ago, but it was rightly pointed out to me that lech saw nothing. if innocent all he did was discover the body. he didnt id a suspect or anything like that. i could see that that might make sense if it was someone like long or schwartz or lawende, but lech isnt a threat to any killer. if lech was innocent the only explanation for the name change i could see would be that he was known at work as cross and or he just didnt want to use the name he was more commonly known to keep his family from being pestered by the press, neighbors etc. . innocent explanations of course, but yet another discrepency that needs to be explained in lechs case.

[MrBarnett]

hi ast
i said the same thing along time ago, but it was rightly pointed out to me that lech saw nothing. if innocent all he did was discover the body. he didnt id a suspect or anything like that. i could see that that might make sense if it was someone like long or schwartz or lawende, but lech isnt a threat to any killer. if lech was innocent the only explanation for the name change i could see would be that he was known at work as cross and or he just didnt want to use the name he was more commonly known to keep his family from being pestered by the press, neighbors etc. . innocent explanations of course, but yet another discrepency that needs to be explained in lechs case.

Abby!

Have I laboured in vain?

There are at least two other sound reasons why an innocent (of the murder) Lechmere might have been unwilling to disclose his proper name in court.


Gary

[MrBarnett]

You and others are making to big an issue on this name he used.

You have to accept that the authorities were happy for him to give that name and we see nothing about him being questioned, and we see no evidence of any suspicion against him. other than a 21st century mystery created by Christer and his wingman Edward Stow, in an attempt to bolster this deluded theory.

Let the poor man rest in peace.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

His name was a big issue to him. Deny it all you want.

[MrBarnett]

Charles allen (small ‘a’) Lechmere seems to have known exactly what his name was from 1870 to 1911, except for when he stood before a Coroner - and then he got a bit confused and called himself Cross.

[MrBarnett]

When CAL’s children were registered at their new school after the move to Doveton Street someone (their father/mother?) thought it necessary to record not only their middle names, but their father’s also.

Check it out to see how unusual that was.

[MrBarnett]

When CAL’s children were registered at their new school after the move to Doveton Street someone (their father/mother?) thought it necessary to record not only their middle names, but their father’s also.

Check it out to see how unusual that was.

It was extremely unusual for children at Essex Road school and/or their recorded parents to disclose a middle name. Does this indicate that CAL had a casual approach to his family’s names?

[Fiver]

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. (Based on Google)

What if Lechmere had only one location to deliver to?

Have you formed an opinion as to what commodity he might have been delivering?

Everyone is making assumptions, most especially Fisherman. I am quite willing to change my mind based on reasoning and evidence, but so far no one has refuted my assumptions about Charles Lechmere's work schedule.

Charles Lechemere worked for Pickford's at Broad Street Station. Trains ran on regular schedules, so a carman's shift would logically be tied to that. From what I can find, the standard for Pickford's was "Each team of horses takes out for delivery, and returns with, two loads of goods daily" and "a full three-horse-van carries between four and five tons". At the time, Pickford's appears to have transported goods for both businesses and individuals. There certainly would be regular bulk shipments to and from large firms, but even those wouldn't necessarily be the same size or be shipped every day. Smaller firms and individuals would be even more irregular in the size and frequency of their shipments.

The nearest Market appears to have been Spitalfield's Market (fruit, vegetables, flowers), though plenty of other things were available there as well. And there were plenty of business outside the Markets. A period source notes "All day long and all the year round there is a constant Fair going on in Whitechapel Road. It is held upon the broad pavement, which was benevolently intended, no doubt, for this purpose. Here are displayed all kinds of things; bits of second-hand furniture, such as the head of a wooden bed, whose griminess is perhaps exaggerated, in order that a purchaser may expect something extraordinarily cheap. Here are lids of pots and saucepans laid out, to show that in the warehouse, of which these things are specimens, will be found the principal parts of the utensils for sale; here are unexpected things, such as rows of skates, sold cheap in summer, light clothing in winter; workmen’s tools of every kind, including, perhaps, the burglarious jemmy; second-hand books – a miscellaneous collection, establishing the fact that the readers of books in Whitechapel – a feeble and scanty folk – read nothing at all except sermons and meditations among the tombs; second-hand boots and shoes; cutlery; hats and caps; rat-traps and mouse-traps and birdcages; flowers and seeds; skittles; and frames for photographs. Cheap- jacks have their carts beside the pavement; and with strident voice proclaim the goodness of their wares, which include in this district bloaters and dried haddocks, as well as crockery. And one is amazed, seeing how the open-air Fair goes on, why the shops are kept open at all.^"

The idea that Lechmere would have been delivering a single commodity is wildly unlikely when his van would have been carrying 4 to 5 tons of goods. Even if he was delivering to Spitalfields Market, it is unlikely that the entire cargo would go to a single vendor or consist of a single commodity. Then Lechemere would be expected to return to Broad Street Station with. Again, this would be wildly unlikely to have been picked up from one location, let alone be one commodity.

As noted, period standard for Pickford's appears to have been each van doing 2 sets of deliveries and returns. Lechmere might have had the occasional day where he only did one set of deliveries and returns, but it would be an exception and he'd probably have to work later on another day to make up for the lost wages.

And, as previously noted, a Pickford's van typically carried both a carman and a conductor, or book carrier.

[Fiver]

No, the line points to Charles Lechmeres home because the apron described was placed at St Philips Church.

The line points to Charles lechmere's home because you chose the Pinchin Street torso while ignoring all the other Torso victims. You chose a Torso Killer victim without providing any evidence to show that they were also the Ripper. You chose to ignore the bloody rag found west of Pinchin street and on the same day. You chose to draw a line to the a bloody apron was discovered at the building site of St Philips Church the day after the Pinchin Street Torso was found. You chose to ignore that there is no evidence that the apron had any connection to the Torso killings. You chose to start your line from Pinchin Street, not from St Philips Church. You chose to ignore that the building site of St Philips Church covered an entire block, not a single point. You chose a single point on that line, ignoring dozens of other houses on that line. You chose to ignore that you don't have a line starting from Pinchin Street, you have a cone that "points" towards dozens of blocks and hundreds of houses. Your line points to Charles Lechmere because you chose to ignore all the lines that don't point to him.

[Fiver]

I would not go there if I were you.

Lets go there. Was there anything unclear or incorrect in what I said?

[Trevor Marriott]

It was extremely unusual for children at Essex Road school and/or their recorded parents to disclose a middle name. Does this indicate that CAL had a casual approach to his family’s names?

Its not about what you or others think about his actions, the fact is that whetever his motives were they were never challenged or commented on by the police or the coroner. So that shows everyone must have been satsified with whatever expolantion he gave if was ever asked for an explantion, and you and others 132 years later should accept that and stop creating a mystery where there is none to be created.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

What we need to know to work out CAL’s shift patterns is what he carried on his cart.

Agreed.

Here are two options:

He carried small parcels to numerous destinations, weaving through the clogged arteries of Victorian London. Multiple drop-offs and timings at the mercy of the traffic. He might be out and about all day doing that and it would have been a two man job.

He carried perishable goods to a single location (Smithfield/Billingsgate for example) where delivery was required in the early hours and where the unloading was largely done by the customer’s porters. One stop per journey and a bit of hanging about.

As you know, I favour horseflesh as being the commodity he carried and that would have been very similar to delivering fish or meat.

There a hundreds, if not thousands, of possibilities for what Lechmere carried on any particular day. Even if he delivered to a single location, like a market, odds are good he would be delivering multiple commodities and to multiple recipients. The only way that he would be delivering only horseflesh every day would be if he worked for a butcher, knacker, or cats meat man; not if he worked for Pickfords.

[MrBarnett]

Agreed.



There a hundreds, if not thousands, of possibilities for what Lechmere carried on any particular day. Even if he delivered to a single location, like a market, odds are good he would be delivering multiple commodities and to multiple recipients. The only way that he would be delivering only horseflesh every day would be if he worked for a butcher, knacker, or cats meat man; not if he worked for Pickfords.

You are cleariy out of your depth. Please do some more research before wasting our time any further. Pickfords delivered tons of provincial horse flesh every week.

[MrBarnett]

Everyone is making assumptions, most especially Fisherman. I am quite willing to change my mind based on reasoning and evidence, but so far no one has refuted my assumptions about Charles Lechmere's work schedule.

Charles Lechemere worked for Pickford's at Broad Street Station. Trains ran on regular schedules, so a carman's shift would logically be tied to that. From what I can find, the standard for Pickford's was "Each team of horses takes out for delivery, and returns with, two loads of goods daily" and "a full three-horse-van carries between four and five tons". At the time, Pickford's appears to have transported goods for both businesses and individuals. There certainly would be regular bulk shipments to and from large firms, but even those wouldn't necessarily be the same size or be shipped every day. Smaller firms and individuals would be even more irregular in the size and frequency of their shipments.

The nearest Market appears to have been Spitalfield's Market (fruit, vegetables, flowers), though plenty of other things were available there as well. And there were plenty of business outside the Markets. A period source notes "All day long and all the year round there is a constant Fair going on in Whitechapel Road. It is held upon the broad pavement, which was benevolently intended, no doubt, for this purpose. Here are displayed all kinds of things; bits of second-hand furniture, such as the head of a wooden bed, whose griminess is perhaps exaggerated, in order that a purchaser may expect something extraordinarily cheap. Here are lids of pots and saucepans laid out, to show that in the warehouse, of which these things are specimens, will be found the principal parts of the utensils for sale; here are unexpected things, such as rows of skates, sold cheap in summer, light clothing in winter; workmen’s tools of every kind, including, perhaps, the burglarious jemmy; second-hand books – a miscellaneous collection, establishing the fact that the readers of books in Whitechapel – a feeble and scanty folk – read nothing at all except sermons and meditations among the tombs; second-hand boots and shoes; cutlery; hats and caps; rat-traps and mouse-traps and birdcages; flowers and seeds; skittles; and frames for photographs. Cheap- jacks have their carts beside the pavement; and with strident voice proclaim the goodness of their wares, which include in this district bloaters and dried haddocks, as well as crockery. And one is amazed, seeing how the open-air Fair goes on, why the shops are kept open at all.^"

The idea that Lechmere would have been delivering a single commodity is wildly unlikely when his van would have been carrying 4 to 5 tons of goods. Even if he was delivering to Spitalfields Market, it is unlikely that the entire cargo would go to a single vendor or consist of a single commodity. Then Lechemere would be expected to return to Broad Street Station with. Again, this would be wildly unlikely to have been picked up from one location, let alone be one commodity.

As noted, period standard for Pickford's appears to have been each van doing 2 sets of deliveries and returns. Lechmere might have had the occasional day where he only did one set of deliveries and returns, but it would be an exception and he'd probably have to work later on another day to make up for the lost wages.

And, as previously noted, a Pickford's van typically carried both a carman and a conductor, or book carrier.

It’s obvious you’re new to all of this. And like a lot of newbies, you’ve done a bit of Googling and consider yourself an expert.