Framing Charles

[Fisherman]

Curiously, Swanson dismissed the cut throat option because he claimed there was no haemorrhaging, didn’t he? That only left a head injury, didn’t it? It seems that was his rather flawed reasoning.

I wonder why he disagreed with both Hebbert and Phillips who were both of the opinion that blood loss was the cause of death.

Baxter disagreed with Llewellyn about what came first in Bucks Row, the throat cuts or the abdominal ones. I know who my money is on when it comes to medical experience and insights.

As for the Pinchin Street woman, I donīt rule out that the order may have been 1/ Blow on head 2/ Cutting of throat 3/ Dismemberment. The 1873 victim and Tabram seem to encourage such a possibility, and it may well be that Nichols suffered an initial stunning blow to the jaw before the killer set about cutting her.

Regardless of that, my money is on Phillips being our best bet when it comes to how the throat may have been cut at two stages, the second one involving dismemberment.

[MrBarnett]

Baxter disagreed with Llewellyn about what came first in Bucks Row, the throat cuts or the abdominal ones. I know who my money is on when it comes to medical experience and insights.

As for the Pinchin Street woman, I donīt rule out that the order may have been 1/ Blow on head 2/ Cutting of throat 3/ Dismemberment. The 1873 victim and Tabram seem to encourage such a possibility, and it may well be that Nichols suffered an initial stunning blow to the jaw before the killer set about cutting her.

Regardless of that, my money is on Phillips being our best bet when it comes to how the throat may have been cut at two stages, the second one involving dismemberment.

Both Phillips and Hebbert said there was haemorrhaging. Swanson says there wasn’t and gives that as his reason for favouring a head wound over a cutthroat as COD.

Should we even bother to consider Swanson’s opinion?

[Fisherman]

Swanson’s take on the COD - discuss...



“Now from the surgeons it was ascertained, firstly that as the trunk was so full of blood death did not take place from hemorrhage [sic], therefore death could not have taken place by cutting the throat, and the absence of the head prevents them saying that it was from violence to it (which appears to me most probable as the trunk contains no stabs to cause death).”

Full of blood? After having had both legs severed? Was she positioned standing on her head after that? It needs pointing out that Swansons report was written on the day the body was found, whereas Phillips conclusion about the two cuts to the throat was stated at the inquest two weeks later. With hindsight, that is.

It seems the autopsy was undertaken on the 11:th, the day after Swanson wrote his report, And what did Phillis find? He found that "There was throughout the body an absence of blood in the vessels".

There we are. Same as the 1873 victim.

[MrBarnett]

Full of blood? After having had both legs severed? Was she positioned standing on her head after that? It needs poiting out that Swansons report was written on the day the body was found, whereas Phillips conclusion about the two cuts to the throat was stated at the inquest two weeks later. With hindsight, that is.

It seems the autopsy was undertaken on the 11:th, the day after Swanson wrote his report, And what did Phillis find? He found that "There was throughout the body an absence of blood in the vessels".

There we are. Same as the 1873 victim.

11th

On 16th Hebbert, who as you know attended the PM, said:

‘The immediate cause of death was syncope as shown by the condition of the heart and the general bloodlessness of the tissues indicating haemorrhage as the cause of death.’

[Astatine211]

If Lechmere was JtR wouldn't it make sense to assume Clara Sophia Heard was a very late victim. She even describes her attacker as an elderly man.

[Fisherman]

11th

On 16th Hebbert, who as you know attended the PM, said:

‘The immediate cause of death was syncope as shown by the condition of the heart and the general bloodlessness of the tissues indicating haemorrhage as the cause of death.’

... aaaand THERE goes Swanson!

[Fisherman]

If Lechmere was JtR wouldn't it make sense to assume Clara Sophia Heard was a very late victim. She even describes her attacker as an elderly man.

Never Heard of her.

[Astatine211]

Never Heard of her.

This occured in Whitechapel on August 28th/ 29th 1908. Almost exactly 20 years after Nichols murder (exactly 20 years if going off the day of the week rather than the date). It has all the hallmarks of a Ripper killing yet it is significantly less successful, maybe due to an aging Ripper decreasing strength. The attacker was never apprehended yet was described as elderly which could support this. Lechmere is the only suspect I'm aware of who was alive and free around this time, albeit much older.

[MrBarnett]

This occured in Whitechapel on August 28th/ 29th 1908. Almost exactly 20 years after Nichols murder (exactly 20 years if going off the day of the week rather than the date). It has all the hallmarks of a Ripper killing yet it is significantly less successful, maybe due to an aging Ripper decreasing strength. The attacker was never apprehended yet was described as elderly which could support this. Lechmere is the only suspect I'm aware of who was alive and free around this time, albeit much older.

Another unique case of a woman being stabbed in the ‘lower part’ in the East End. If Tabram has to be a Ripper, so does she.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/33649-mary-webber-brick-lane-1908

[Astatine211]

Another unique case of a woman being stabbed in the ‘lower part’ in the East End. If Tabram has to be a Ripper, so does she.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...rick-lane-1908

Tabram was definately a Ripper murder. Amongst the C5 there already enough evidence of escalation so naturally Tabram fits the pattern.

The only alternative is she was brutally killed by a random drunk soldier who was never identified and within a few weeks a serial killer just so happens to start being active in the immediate vicinity whose murders share certain unique details.

[MrBarnett]

Tabram was definately a Ripper murder. Amongst the C5 there already enough evidence of escalation so naturally Tabram fits the pattern.

The only alternative is she was brutally killed by a random drunk soldier who was never identified and within a few weeks a serial killer just so happens to start being active in the immediate vicinity whose murders share certain unique details.

There’s no ‘definitely’ about it. And there is precious little escalation in the c5. The differences there are can be explained by differing degrees of opportunity. If you believe in a c5, Stride and Kelly must tell you that.

The alternatives for Tabram are not so limited. She could have been killed by anyone. If you believe Pearly Poll’s story and you trust Dr Killeen’s TOD, why would you think she was killed by a soldier?

If you doubt PP, then it gets interesting.

[rjpalmer]

Although the details are slightly off, perhaps the same woman, Clara Heard, dead from starvation six months later.

Maybe a case for Ms. Rubenhold? Clara seems to have had a habit of sleeping rough in the streets at 'at all hours of the night' including the footway in George Yard.

Aren't such cases mythical?

[MrBarnett]

Although the details are slightly off, perhaps the same woman, Clara Heard, dead from starvation six months later.

Maybe a case for Ms. Rubenhold? Clara seems to have had a habit of sleeping rough in the streets at 'at all hours of the night' including the footway in George Yard.

Aren't such cases mythical?

I think that’s the woman in the JTRForums thread. Her husband, Mark, died in early 1908.

Who said they were mythical?

I hope you’re not misrepresenting something I’ve said.

[MrBarnett]

This is from Lloyds 7/2/1909. Sourcing clippings is always helpful. It looks like it is the same woman mentioned before.

She was seriously ill, starving and suffering from heart disease and exposure. That she might have crumpled to a heap in George Yard and been discovered by a patrolling PC fits very nicely ;-). That’s very different from Kate Eddowes agitating to get out of Bishopsgate nick so she could go and lie in the middle of the pavement in Mitre Square.

But, hey, that’s another story. How do we progress beyond the hung jury in respect of the Pinchin Street victim’s COD?

On the one hand we have Phillips suggesting a cut throat and Hebbert pointing to haemorrhage.

On the other we have Swanson saying the complete opposite and RJ sitting on the fence.

[Astatine211]

But, hey, that’s another story. How do we progress beyond the hung jury in respect of the Pinchin Street victim’s COD?

Alternatively hemorrhaging could've been caused by severing of the aorta rather than cutting of the throat. Is it known if the abdominal mutilations were post mortem or pre mortem?

Although they could confirm the Pinchin Street victim had never had any children they could not rule out pregnancy. One of the possible explanations for the torsos were botched abortions therefore severing of the aorta would make sense. However this would not explain the torso being covered in bruises.