Framing Charles

[Abby Normal]

Patrick Mulshaw testified he saw two police, constables head towards the murder sight. The second one was PC John Neil but the first constable was never identified and could've been at the murder sight before Lechmere found her, however Mulshaw was unsure what time it was when he saw them although it was before the body was found by the police.

Mulshaw also testified an unidentified man passed by and said "Watchman, old man, I believe somebody is murdered down the street". This man was never identified or found. This is unlikely to be the JtR as he wouldn't implicate himself like this and after being informed this, Mulshaw headed towards the body and there were police officers and the slaughter men surrounding it.

What this shows it there were at least an unknown to us police constable and unidentified man active around the crime scene at the time of the murder.

In fact, Mulshaw himself was only 60 yards away from the murder site as he was guarding some sewage repairs. Also in close vicinity to the murder site at the time of the murder were an unidentified Railway Yard Night Gateman and Night Watchman for the nearby Kearly and Tonges Warehouse.

So within the vicinity of the murder around the time of the murder there were at least 5 others, 4 of which whose identity unknown, showing there were definitely other people about.

1. Unidentified Police Constable who was heading towards the location of the body before it was discovered by John Neil.

2. An unidentified man who was walking away from the murder site shortly after it had been discovered by the police.

3. Patrick Mulshaw himself who was 60 yards away as a night watchman on Winthrop street.

4. An unidentified railway yard night gateman who was asked by police if he had heard any screams. Despite this gateman being in contact with the police, I have been unable to find his name.

5. An unidentified night watchman at the nearby Kearly and Tonges warehouse. I don't believe the police ever inquired with this person, which is a shame imo especially due to the recurring coincidence of the murders being nearby to Kearly and Tonges warehouses.

thanks ast!
the unknown man who adressed mulshaw as old man is an intriguing character. i had forgotten about him.

[jerryd]

Look at who was visiting Bucks Row in September of 1889 and starting marches to the West end from that location.

Jewish Standard
September 13, 1889

[Fiver]

Pinchin Street is interesting, but I feel you missed out on the full significance of that. And we have no idea how long he lived there as a child. It could have been a few weeks for all we know.

Charles Lechmere never lived at 23 Pinchon Street. His mother moved there sometime after her 1872 marriage to Joseph Forsdike.

[MrBarnett]

Charles Lechmere never lived at 23 Pinchon Street. His mother moved there sometime after her 1872 marriage to Joseph Forsdike.

He lived at no. 13, in 1861 when it was called Thomas Street. It was subsequently renamed Pinchin Street. The house where he had been recorded as Charles Cross, aged 11, in 1861 was one of the few still standing in 1889.

The terrace of houses between Phillip Street and Stutfield Street was still there in 1916 when my grandmother lived there.

[Fiver]

Of course the locations are linked to Lechmere by lining the district where he walked to work, plus the two main thoroughfares there were to choose from were the streets along which the murders occurred.

Those locations were in the same district that Lechmere walked to work. But that is just as true for thousands of other people. Only one killing directly links to Lechmere in that he found Nichols' body. Lechemere has no direct link to any of the other killings and a clear alibi for the Chapman killing.

And it is not me specifically who use geography as a litmus test, it is standard police procedure. If you have my book, then read up on killer and abductor Robert Black who was convicted on such geographical indications in places where millions of people had access to the abduction spots.

Black was not convicted because he happened to be traveling through the area for work. He was spotted abducting a child, the witness got his license plate number, and Black was pulled over and arrested before he could kill the child. There had been similar abductions in the past, with the large distances between the abduction sites and body disposal sites implying that the killer was someone who traveled extensively for a living, like a truck driver or sales representative. There was no geographical profiling to figure where the killer lived. Police then compared records of Black's petrol purchases, finding close matches in location and time to both abductions and body disposals. They did not check only Black's records, they also checked other drivers. Black was the only one tied to all the killings. All other drivers investigated for being close to one of the sites had clear alibis for at least one other abduction or disposal, much like Charles Lechmere had an alibi for the Chapman murder. Black also fit the physical description of a man seen near some of the victims before their abduction.

Moreover, I am not "proving" that Lechmere was the killer, I am saying that the suspicions led on by many, many factors mean that he must be checked for geography to see if Lechmere fits the bill, and he does so in a very glaring manner.

All you have established is that Lechmere lived and worked in the area. Applying your standards would supply just as much evidence against Robert Paul or most of the hundreds of other men suspected of being the Ripper. The only Ripper killing that Lechmere is provably at the site at the right time was the Nichols' killing, but we only know that because Lechmere came forward with his evidence - neither PC Mizen nor Robert Paul had ever gotten Lechmre's name. Lechmere has no direct tie to any of the other killings - unlike Black, there was neither physical nor eyewitness evidence putting Lechmere near the site of any of the other killings, let alone around the time that the killings occurred. Lechmere was already at work when Chapman was murdered, he could not have killed her. Lechmere would have had to get up 3 hours early on his day off to have killed Stride or Eddowes, which makes it unlikely he was their killer. Even if your location matches were as good as you believe they are, the timing of the killings exonerates Lechmere.

[Fiver]

Why is the rag probably totally unrelated? What are the implications you have identified? And please, the line should not be drawn from the arch to the rag, it should be drawn from the arch to 22 Doveton Street - in which that line passes over where a bloody apron was found on the day after the dumping of the Pinchin Street Torso.
If, as you on no basis at all assert us, that rag was not tied to the torso, then guess what it is instead? Correct: Another drop in the ocean of coincidences that seem to point to Lechmere. Poor fellow!

You are the one claiming that a bloody apron found the next day had anything to do with the Pinchin Street torso. So far you have provided no evidence to back your claim. What was it, a rag or an apron? Where specifically was it found - St Philips is more than just a dot on the map. When was it found? How fresh was the blood? Did police make any connection between it and the Pinchin Street Torso.

Drawing a line between the Pinchin Street Torso and 22 Doveton is not a coincidence, it is deliberately drawing a line aimed at Charles Lechmere and ignoring all other possibilities. It would also be several blocks off of the most likely walking route between the two locations.

[Fiver]

How could Lechmere have been framed more efficiently? Any ideas?

How to frame Charles Lechmere in 5 easy steps.

1) Don't kill any of the victims at times when Lechmere would have an alibi. As opposed to killing Chapman at a time when Charles Lechmere was almost certain to have an alibi.
2) Provide eyewitness testimony linking Lechmere to at least one of the killings. If you're bold, just perjure yourself. If you even more bold, disguise yourself as Lechmere and make sure that you're spotted just before or after the killing. Even an anonymous accusatory letter would be a start.
3) Don't kill any of the victims at times when Lechmere would have an alibi. As opposed to killing Stride at a time when Charles Lechmere was almost certain to have an alibi.
4) Provide physical evidence that links Lechmere to the killings. If you're going to take trophy organs, you don't disappear them, you leave them in Lechmere's yard. You don't discard half a bloody apron in front of a random building, you put in front of Pickford's at Braod Street Station, where Lechmere works. You carve the initials CC or CL into you murder weapon and "accidentally" leave it at the murder scene, or better still, buried in the body.
5) Don't kill any of the victims at times when Lechmere would have an alibi. As opposed to killing Eddowes at a time when Charles Lechmere was almost certain to have an alibi.

You don't depend on the police paying connect the dots when none of those dots is a place Lechmere lived or worked.

[MrBarnett]

How to frame Charles Lechmere in 5 easy steps.

1) Don't kill any of the victims at times when Lechmere would have an alibi. As opposed to killing Chapman at a time when Charles Lechmere was almost certain to have an alibi.
2) Provide eyewitness testimony linking Lechmere to at least one of the killings. If you're bold, just perjure yourself. If you even more bold, disguise yourself as Lechmere and make sure that you're spotted just before or after the killing. Even an anonymous accusatory letter would be a start.
3) Don't kill any of the victims at times when Lechmere would have an alibi. As opposed to killing Stride at a time when Charles Lechmere was almost certain to have an alibi.
4) Provide physical evidence that links Lechmere to the killings. If you're going to take trophy organs, you don't disappear them, you leave them in Lechmere's yard. You don't discard half a bloody apron in front of a random building, you put in front of Pickford's at Braod Street Station, where Lechmere works. You carve the initials CC or CL into you murder weapon and "accidentally" leave it at the murder scene, or better still, buried in the body.
5) Don't kill any of the victims at times when Lechmere would have an alibi. As opposed to killing Eddowes at a time when Charles Lechmere was almost certain to have an alibi.

You don't depend on the police paying connect the dots when none of those dots is a place Lechmere lived or worked.

Leave the Pinchin Street torso exactly where it was left.

[Fiver]

At the end of the day, any police force checking out a suspect and finding that he or she traversed the exact area where the murders they are investigating occurred - and at roughly the relevant hours - would be stoked to find such a thing out. I doubt that they would go into the finer points of winding streets and dangerous locations in such a case. A correlation is a correlation, and few correlations can be clearer than this one.

Any police investigation would have showed that Charles Lechmere "traversed the exact area where the murders they are investigating occurred - and at roughly the relevant hours" only once, for the Nichols killing. Everything other killing is in not the "exact area", not at "roughly the relevant hours", or both.

[Fiver]

And Charles Lechmere was found alone with one of the Ripper victims at a moment in time when she would go on to bleed for many a minute. It is as simple as that too, but you seem to forget it all the time...?

As for how long it can take for blood to clot, lets look at the Pinchin Street Torso inquest.

"On moving the body I found that there was a little blood underneath where the neck had lain. It was small in quantity and not clotted. The blood had oozed from the cut surface of the neck." - Surgeon Clarke

That observation was made about half an hour after the headless torso was found by PC Pennett.

[Fiver]

Leave the Pinchin Street torso exactly where it was left.

The Pinchin Street torso was deposited between about 4:55am and 5:25am based on the testimony of PC Pennett, who found the remains. Charles Lechmere would have been at work for an hour or more and almost certain to have an alibi.

It does more to implicate Maria Roulson Lechmere Cross Forsdike than it does to implicate her son.

[MrBarnett]

As for how long it can take for blood to clot, lets look at the Pinchin Street Torso inquest.

"On moving the body I found that there was a little blood underneath where the neck had lain. It was small in quantity and not clotted. The blood had oozed from the cut surface of the neck." - Surgeon Clarke

That observation was made about half an hour after the headless torso was found by PC Pennett.

The ‘blood evidence’ is a non-starter.

[MrBarnett]

The Pinchin Street torso was deposited between about 4:55am and 5:25am based on the testimony of PC Pennett, who found the remains. Charles Lechmere would have been at work for an hour or more and almost certain to have an alibi.

It does more to implicate Maria Roulson Lechmere Cross Forsdike than it does to implicate her son.

You seem to be making the same assumptions that Christer makes about Lechmere’s shift pattern.We have no real idea of what his working times/days were in 1888/9.

[Fiver]

are you joking? you couldnt get any more physically linked to a victim than lech, he freaken touched her as she lay dead or dying. the rest regarding paul is ludicrous.

he killed nichols and then circled back lol. yeah right.

If your definition of physically linked to a victim, is touched her as she lay dead or dying, then Lechmere was physically linked to Nichols. So was Robert Paul. So was PC Neil.

And while I do not consider Robert Paul to be a likely Ripper suspect, there are people that do. My point was that these supposed geographical links apply to Paul at least as much as they apply to Lechmere.

[MrBarnett]

If your definition of physically linked to a victim, is touched her as she lay dead or dying, then Lechmere was physically linked to Nichols. So was Robert Paul. So was PC Neil.

And while I do not consider Robert Paul to be a likely Ripper suspect, there are people that do. My point was that these supposed geographical links apply to Paul at least as much as they apply to Lechmere.

Please enlighten us as to Paul’s links to St Georges, particularly Pinchin Street.

One possible Lechmere link to Mitre Square that seems to get overlooked is that a one stage Pickfords had a depot in nearby Haydon Square, the nearest exit from the City from Mitre Square.