Framing Charles

[MrBarnett]

No, using the statistical method, Lechmere seemingly fits the bill - and an alternative killer who selects four murder spots that are ALL in line with Lechmere“s logical treks is somebody who is just like him in a geographical respect. Surely that must be quite obvious!
Remember that you are also dealing with the Stride and Eddowes murders. They were NOT along the working treks of Lechmere, and so they happened when he did NOT work.
A coincidence? Again? Was the alternative killer somebody who traversed the exact same area as Lechmere in the early morning hours - and who also had reason to visit St Georges on a Saturday night?
And who would drop the apron northeast of Mitre Square, pointing towards Doveton Street?
But who was nothing like Lechmere at all?

Lechmere fits the bill for everything that occurred along his work routes. Or rather along them and in any side street that runs off them. Doesn’t he? What’s the odds that thousands of quick shags in dark corners off his route were committed by him?

He doesn’t fit Mitre Square though. My alternative who haunts the Aldgate-Mile End Road thoroughfare looking for unfortunates fits that perfectly. As for St Georges, I can think of dozens of characters who had connections to there and Spitalfields.

I’m sorry, when we start drawing lines on a map to join up bloody rags to murder sites and a suspect’s it reminds me of ley lines.

[Fisherman]

Lechmere fits the bill for everything that occurred along his work routes. Or rather along them and in any side street that runs off them. Doesn’t he? What’s the odds that thousands of quick shags in dark corners off his route were committed by him?

He doesn’t fit Mitre Square though. My alternative who haunts the Aldgate-Mile End Road thoroughfare looking for unfortunates fits that perfectly. As for St Georges, I can think of dozens of characters who had connections to there and Spitalfields.

I’m sorry, when we start drawing lines on a map to join up bloody rags to murder sites and a suspect’s it reminds me of ley lines.

Yes, Lechmere fits the bill for things that occurred along his routes. And that is the issue at hand here. He is a suspect by way of the blood evidence, not least, but also by way of other matters. And so those suspicions are put to the test by looking at him geographically - is there anything that points to him in that respect. And boy, oh boy ...!

Mitre Square? The theory is that he killed Stride in Berner Street, a lame stone“s throw away from where his mother and daughter lived - and that he fled the scene as he was disturbed. If that holds true, then why would we presume that he must have sought out a site he was earlier connected to?
That aside, it applies that as Lechmere lived in James Street, the route he took to work would much have resembled the route from Berner Street to Mitre Square. Extremely likely, he would have been aware of St Botolphs Church, the "prostitutes church" and that is very close to Mitre Square, so it is not hard to see a logical pathway in all of that: "Okay, no luck here, so I“ll scarper off to the city and St Botolph“s", sort of. Known territory!

How many of the dozens of characters you know had ties to St Georges as well as Spitalfields were found standing next to a woman who was freshly killed and who would go on to bleed for many minutes? That question HAS to be asked if we are not to get caught up in the bog of "there were lots of people living there". It is totally irrelevant and only serves to muddle the picture. I“m sure there were actually thousands of people who had some sort of ties to both St Georges and Spitalfields, but let“s leave them aside, shall we?

Ley lines? You really should not lower yourself to that. Why would the placement of the rag/s NOT be potentially indicative of the route the killer took and where he was headed? And what does that have to do with Ley lines? Brrrr!

[Fisherman]

Time for a pause! Will check the thread later.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s an interlude question. Where does the idea that St Botolph’s was ‘the Prostitute’s Church’ come from?

[Fisherman]

Here’s an interlude question. Where does the idea that St Botolph’s was ‘the Prostitute’s Church’ come from?

Originally? I can“t say. But this was certainly so. Here is a caption text from a Casebook pic of the building:

"Above: St. Botolph's Church, on Aldgate High Street. This church was known as the prostitutes' church, because the ladies would walk around it in order to attract clients (it was against the law to stand in one place and solicit). It was in this area that Catherine Eddowes was seen drunk the night of her murder. Photograph courtesy of Mr. John Smithkey III."

[Fisherman]

That“s it for today. See you tomorrow.

[MrBarnett]

Originally? I can“t say. But this was certainly so. Here is a caption text from a Casebook pic of the building:

"Above: St. Botolph's Church, on Aldgate High Street. This church was known as the prostitutes' church, because the ladies would walk around it in order to attract clients (it was against the law to stand in one place and solicit). It was in this area that Catherine Eddowes was seen drunk the night of her murder. Photograph courtesy of Mr. John Smithkey III."

I’d be rather wary of accepting a caption from a 20th century book as a reliable source.

A bit like the ‘Clay Pipe Alice’ nickname for McKenzie. I believe that is a 20th century invention.

I have a feeling that Rumbelow may have used the Prostitute’s Church designation quite early on. Not sure.

[MrBarnett]

Two niggly little points on the biog. stuff.

Lechmere didn’t marry at Christchurch, Spitalfields, he married at Christchurch, Watney Street (St. George in the East). The vicar who officiated was James Maconechy. (See photo)

And it’s a bit misleading to say that the 1871 census shows him having ‘left home’ and moved to Mary Ann Street. He was living in Mary Ann Street when he married in 1870, and in 1871 he was still living there - at the same address as his mother: 11, Mary Ann Street. Charles and Elizabeth were in a separate household (room/floor?), but Maria had a young (23) carman named George Blencowe boarding with her. I think we established that he was later admitted to the Grove Hall Asylum.

[MrBarnett]

One thing I’ve seen written before but haven’t been able to confirm is Joseph Forsdike’s ‘long term hospitalisation’.

[Fisherman]

I’d be rather wary of accepting a caption from a 20th century book as a reliable source.

A bit like the ‘Clay Pipe Alice’ nickname for McKenzie. I believe that is a 20th century invention.

I have a feeling that Rumbelow may have used the Prostitute’s Church designation quite early on. Not sure.

As I say, I do not know the origin, but the term is a very common one. Which of course does not mean that it must have been around in 1888. If Rumbelow was in the front line, I tend to think it may have been a term that was used in the police force, and he picked it up there. Can you tell whether St Botolphs remained a haunt for prostitutes through the decades, or were they cleared away at some stage?

[Fisherman]

Two niggly little points on the biog. stuff.

Lechmere didn’t marry at Christchurch, Spitalfields, he married at Christchurch, Watney Street (St. George in the East). The vicar who officiated was James Maconechy. (See photo)

Well, that of course makes sense. Thanks for pointing it out!

And it’s a bit misleading to say that the 1871 census shows him having ‘left home’ and moved to Mary Ann Street. He was living in Mary Ann Street when he married in 1870, and in 1871 he was still living there - at the same address as his mother: 11, Mary Ann Street. Charles and Elizabeth were in a separate household (room/floor?), but Maria had a young (23) carman named George Blencowe boarding with her. I think we established that he was later admitted to the Grove Hall Asylum.

Having halfways left home...? Noted, Gary, and again thanks.

[MrBarnett]

As I say, I do not know the origin, but the term is a very common one. Which of course does not mean that it must have been around in 1888. If Rumbelow was in the front line, I tend to think it may have been a term that was used in the police force, and he picked it up there. Can you tell whether St Botolphs remained a haunt for prostitutes through the decades, or were they cleared away at some stage?

I’ve only ever found it mentioned in Ripper circles. Ditto ‘Clay Pipe Alice’. I’ll keep an eye out for earlier references and report back if I find any.

[MrBarnett]

My comment about Ley Lines obviously didn’t go down well.

It was once a subject that intrigued me until the realisation dawned that if you draw a long enough line anywhere on a map of this long-occupied island you’ll find three or more significant points that fall along it.

Take the line that goes from the Pinchin Street arch through St Phillip’s church to Doveton Street. If you extend it to the SW it passes through Blue Anchor Yard, associated with John McCarthy and Joe Barnett.

I wonder what Barnett’s route to Billingsgate was: Dorset Street/Commercial Street (near the junction with Hanbury Street)/Whitechapel High Street/Aldgate...

[Fisherman]

I’ve only ever found it mentioned in Ripper circles. Ditto ‘Clay Pipe Alice’. I’ll keep an eye out for earlier references and report back if I find any.

Thanks for that.

[Fisherman]

My comment about Ley Lines obviously didn’t go down well.

Not really, no. Did you expect it to?

It was once a subject that intrigued me until the realisation dawned that if you draw a long enough line anywhere on a map of this long-occupied island you’ll find three or more significant points that fall along it.

Take the line that goes from the Pinchin Street arch through St Phillip’s church to Doveton Street. If you extend it to the SW it passes through Blue Anchor Yard, associated with John McCarthy and Joe Barnett.

I wonder what Barnett’s route to Billingsgate was: Dorset Street/Commercial Street (near the junction with Hanbury Street)/Whitechapel High Street/Aldgate...

Barnett was cleared by the police, was he not? And he was not found alone with a murder victim. Not is he recorded as having given an alias, or to have disagreed with the police.

Otherwise, the exercise is exactly what the hunt for the Ripper should be: start with the ones who were actually there or had a link to any of the murder victims. Barnett has both of these things going for him.

But Lechmere has a heck of a lot more going for him, regardless of how we look upon things. And among it is the amazing thing that St Philips was exactly on the line between the railway arch in Pinchin Street and 22 Doveton Street.

You see, it is not and never was about how there where other people present in London. I“ve said it before. We are checking Lechmere as a suspect, to see how HIS geographical patterns fit the bill. And the rag in St Philips does not go away or diminish in any way because we can see that the line passed trough areas to which other people had a link.

The rag was found in St Philips - Oh, but if we draw a line from St Philips through the railway arch, it also passed Blue Anchor Yard, linked to Barnett and McCarthy!

The four Whitechapel murders all occured on streets that were logical teks fro Lechmere to his work - Oh, but so many other people will have used them streets!

Lechmere used an alias - Oh, but many people did that back then!

Stride was killed a stone“s throw from Lechmere“s mothers house - The area was crammed with Eastenders, it could have been anyone of them!

A torso was dumped on the exact street where Lechmere grew up and had numerous links to - Yeah, but the killer had to dump the torso somewhere, and why not in Pinchin Street?

Lechmere was found alone by the side of Polly Nichols as she still would go on to bleed for many a minute - Somebody HAD to find her, all corpses in the streets are found by someone!

It is a kind of dilution that no invetigative force or court of law would take kindly to. Lechmere“s stamp on these matters does not go away because of the alternative explanations and assertions that London was densely inhabited.