Framing Charles

[Abby Normal]

McKenzies cut was seven inches long, not very deep and went from the bottom of her left breast down to the navel, so it differed significantly from what Nichols, Chapman and Kelly suffered. As I have already said, she does not strengthen the case, nor does she detract from it, and so I left her out.

thats ok fish she was still a ripper victim. of that i am sure. as does the evidence. and lech could have had that night off just like the night of the double event.as far as im concerned your geo evidence is still strong.

[Abby Normal]

Her throat was also cut and there was a stab to her mons veneris.

As Abby says, perhaps Lechmere’s shifts had changed by 1889. Or perhaps his start time wasn’t always 4.00am during 1888.

yes exactly. it dosnt detract from lech either way

[MrBarnett]

thats ok fish she was still a ripper victim. of that i am sure. as does the evidence. and lech could have had that night off just like the night of the double event.as far as im concerned your geo evidence is still strong.

I’m afraid the strength of the geo evidence escapes me. We can be certain of only one victim who was found on Lechmere’s work route - Nichols.

[MrBarnett]

Where would we expect to find Spitalfields lodging house women soliciting in the early hours - Aldgate, Whitechapel High Street/Road, Commercial Street Brick Lane... and where would they go to transact their business? In the quiet backstreets, alleys etc nearby.

Lechmere’s work route took him through the area where this activity was most prevalent.

And on one - possibly two - occasions a woman was murdered on his actual route. Ditto Robert Paul.

[Abby Normal]

I’m afraid the strength of the geo evidence escapes me. We can be certain of only one victim who was found on Lechmere’s work route - Nichols.

hi gary
did you see my excercise to compare? like bowyer, crow, hutch, richardson? surely if the geo evidence is weak, we should be able to asses they had the same like lech no?

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[Fisherman]

Her throat was also cut and there was a stab to her mons veneris.

As Abby says, perhaps Lechmere’s shifts had changed by 1889. Or perhaps his start time wasn’t always 4.00am during 1888.

For MacKanzie to be a problem to the Lechmere theory, it would take that it was a fact that she belonged to the series of murders, and that we know that Lechmere could not be the killer. No such thing applies.

Yes, she had her throat "cut" (or stabbed) and yes, thre was a wound to the mons veneers. And as I say, our best guess is that she was killed by the person who was responsible for the so called Whitechapel murders. As Jane Beadmore tells us, this is however no certainty.

If I had written a book where I made some sort of rating of the victims, then maybe I would have included McKenzie. But my book is abvout making as good and clear a case as possibe for why I think Lechmere was the killer, and in that context, McKenzie does not add anything much of interest wheeas I find Tabram does.

That´s the long and the short of things.

[Fisherman]

I’m afraid the strength of the geo evidence escapes me. We can be certain of only one victim who was found on Lechmere’s work route - Nichols.

If Lechmere was not the killer, then somebody else just happened to place all four murders along his logical work treks instead of on the 900 + OTHER Whitechapel streets that had no connection to those treks. And the odds for that is one in five million, if we accept the twentyish streets I outline in the book. If we add twenty more streets, we end up at a one in two and a half million chance.

That is extremely strong geographical evidence in my book.

[Fisherman]

Where would we expect to find Spitalfields lodging house women soliciting in the early hours - Aldgate, Whitechapel High Street/Road, Commercial Street Brick Lane... and where would they go to transact their business? In the quiet backstreets, alleys etc nearby.

Lechmere’s work route took him through the area where this activity was most prevalent.

And on one - possibly two - occasions a woman was murdered on his actual route. Ditto Robert Paul.

Robert Paul was murdered along his routes...?

Before we know his "actual route", we cannot say how many women were killed along it. But we CAN say that the Hanbury Street route and the Old Montague Street route offered equal alternatives in terms of distance and time, and so they must be regarded as logical choices, both of them. All the four murders were carried out in places where we can say that they correspond with routes that would be optimal in terms of getting Lechmere to work as quickly as possible. There were lots and lots of other streets that do not fit that bill, and where there was prostitution to be had - and not one of these four murders took place. If we are to prmote another killer, then we must say that it seems it was somebody just like Charles Lechmere - and that is exactly what I am saying. It was.

[Fisherman]

Okay, I have now posted on the blood evidence and why it establishes that Lechmere is by far the likeliest killer of Polly Nichols. Enjoy ...!

[MrBarnett]

Robert Paul was murdered along his routes...?

Before we know his "actual route", we cannot say how many women were killed along it. But we CAN say that the Hanbury Street route and the Old Montague Street route offered equal alternatives in terms of distance and time, and so they must be regarded as logical choices, both of them. All the four murders were carried out in places where we can say that they correspond with routes that would be optimal in terms of getting Lechmere to work as quickly as possible. There were lots and lots of other streets that do not fit that bill, and where there was prostitution to be had - and not one of these four murders took place. If we are to prmote another killer, then we must say that it seems it was somebody just like Charles Lechmere - and that is exactly what I am saying. It was.

‘s


It really doesn’t have to be anyone ‘like’ Charles Lechmere. Anyone who had a taste for killing vulnerable lodging house unfortunates would most likely have left their bodies in a street/alley off the major arteries where such women operated. Lechmere’s routes tracked/crossed those major thoroughfares.

I think it’s misleading to assign an equal value to each of the 1000 streets of ‘Whitechapel’. Why stop there? Why not use all streets in the East End or London as a whole?

1 in so many millions sounds impressive, but we know what they say about statistics. Step back a bit and ask yourself the simple question ‘how likely is it that there was more than one man who lived in Mile End and who worked in either Liverpool Street or Broad Street Station?’. One in how many zillions might that be?

[Fisherman]

‘s


It really doesn’t have to be anyone ‘like’ Charles Lechmere. Anyone who had a taste for killing vulnerable lodging house unfortunates would most likely have left their bodies in a street/alley off the major arteries where such women operated. Lechmere’s routes tracked/crossed those major thoroughfares.

It would have to be somebody who moved along or sought out the two thoroughfares that were open for a passage between Bucks Row and the Liverpool Street Station area, and in that respect, yes, it had to be somebody like Charles Lechmere.

I think it’s misleading to assign an equal value to each of the 1000 streets of ‘Whitechapel’. Why stop there? Why not use all streets in the East End or London as a whole?

The number is not an absolute one, but it highlights the kind of difficulties we are in if we say that the geographical implications are not useful. And yes, one must of course weigh in that there were more areas than Whitechapel open to a killer. And other time segments than the early morning one. But in spite of this, it is as if that alternative killer was absolutely hellbent on framing Charles!

1 in so many millions sounds impressive, but we know what they say about statistics. Step back a bit and ask yourself the simple question ‘how likely is it that there was more than one man who lived in Mile End and who worked in either Liverpool Street or Broad Street Station?’. One in how many zillions might that be?

...and who just happened to traverse the area in the early morning hours? And who just happened to be found alone with a freshly killed Ripper victim? And who just happened to disagree with the police over what was said? And who just happened to use an alias?

One man. And one man only, Gary.

If you have the time, I´d also like for you to comment on the other thread I just started!

[MrBarnett]

No, it doesn’t have to be someone like Lechmere. A killer hunting along Whitechapel Road/High Street/Aldgate and Commercial Street (where unfortunates were most likely to be found) and taking or being taken by them to the nearest secluded spot could have been any kind of person - from a prince to a blind beggar. Lechmere’s two routes coincided with where thus activity took place.

We have both Tomkins and Neil telling us about the women in the Whitechapel Road. Of course that’s where they did their soliciting and of course they would take their clients into the smaller streets just off that busy thoroughfare. And Lechmere’s southern route was immediately behind the Whitechapel Road.

Using your statistical method, Lechmere would be identified as the most likely person to have any encounter with a prostitute in any back street immediately north of Whitechapel Road or anywhere near the Hanbury Street/Commercial Street junction wouldn’t he?

[Fisherman]

No, it doesn’t have to be someone like Lechmere. A killer hunting along Whitechapel Road/High Street/Aldgate and Commercial Street (where unfortunates were most likely to be found) and taking or being taken by them to the nearest secluded spot could have been any kind of person - from a prince to a blind beggar. Lechmere’s two routes coincided with where thus activity took place.

Yes, such a killer could have been a Chinese, a Royal descendant or a cleaning lady. But he or she would nevertheless be someone like Lechmere when we look at the geographical implications. We would still be dealing with somebody who seemingly did everything in his/her power to frame Charles Lechmere. And the geographical implications are what I point to when I say that it was either Lechmere or somebody very much like him.

We have both Tomkins and Neil telling us about the women in the Whitechapel Road. Of course that’s where they did their soliciting and of course they would take their clients into the smaller streets just off that busy thoroughfare. And Lechmere’s southern route was immediately behind the Whitechapel Road.

The alternative killer you suggest would fit the Tabram bill, but how about Chapman? Did he pick her up in Whitechapel Road and traverse Spitalfields to Lechmere´s northern route?
The geographical evidence is compeling when we look at Lechmere. Actually, there are no other streets we may choose to make the case against him MORE compelling. In my book, such things count.

Using your statistical method, Lechmere would be identified as the most likely person to have any encounter with a prostitute in any back street immediately north of Whitechapel Road or anywhere near the Hanbury Street/Commercial Street junction wouldn’t he?

No, using the statistical method, Lechmere seemingly fits the bill - and an alternative killer who selects four murder spots that are ALL in line with Lechmere´s logical treks is somebody who is just like him in a geographical respect. Surely that must be quite obvious!
Remember that you are also dealing with the Stride and Eddowes murders. They were NOT along the working treks of Lechmere, and so they happened when he did NOT work.
A coincidence? Again? Was the alternative killer somebody who traversed the exact same area as Lechmere in the early morning hours - and who also had reason to visit St Georges on a Saturday night?
And who would drop the apron northeast of Mitre Square, pointing towards Doveton Street?
But who was nothing like Lechmere at all?

[Fisherman]

Before we have turned the subject upside down, let´s also remember that the one reason that we are checking Lechmere for geography is because he is a suspect. And so we want to know to which - if any - degree there is a geographical correlation with the murder sites on his behalf. And that correlation is very emphatically there.

The reaction to such a thing is typically to recognize that the suspicion has been very much strengthened, not to point to how other people also had access to the area where the murders were committed...