Framing Charles

[MrBarnett]

It doesnt really matter what name he used in 1888 as stated he was entitled to use both names.

The issue is did he give the name Cross with intent to miselead, deceive, or deflect suspicion away from himself. the answer has to be a definate no on all three,
end of story no need to discuss the matter further. This part of Fishermans theory is dead in the water, along with his blood flow evidence which he also seeks to rely on to bring suspicion against Cross.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Where’s your evidence that he was known by the name Cross in 1888?

There is none.

The evidence that he was known as Lechmere is stacking up. You may want to stop the story at a point where it supports your view, others may wish to keep searching for the truth.

[Trevor Marriott]

Wrong post deleted

[Trevor Marriott]

On balance, I see more to suggest he was widely known as Lechmere in 1888 than I do that he was as Cross.

It doesnt really matter what name he used in 1888 as stated he was entitled to use both names.

The issue is did he give the name Cross with intent to miselead, deceive, or deflect suspicion away from himself. the answer has to be a definate no on all three,
end of story no need to discuss the matter further. This part of Fishermans theory is dead in the water, along with his blood flow evidence which he also seeks to rely on to bring suspicion against Cross.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

MAM was still living at 21, Mary Ann Street in 1871.

And in 1881 and 1891 she was living in ... drum roll ... Berner Street. So it seems that CAL had an ex-neighbour living at 64, Berner Street in 1888. An ex-neighbour who had possibly nursed his sister during her final illness. Charles was known as both Lechmere and Cross in Berner Street.!!!

So we have found a plausible reason for him to visit the very street where Liz Stride was killed.

I’m expecting a Christmas card from Christer this year (unless, of course, he already knew all this stuff).

[MrBarnett]

The father’s name on the cert should of course be John, not Charles. But the point is that Mary Ann Marshall was aware of the Lechmere name - while Thomas Cross was still alive!

MAM was still living at 21, Mary Ann Street in 1871.

[MrBarnett]

By 1891, CAL’s eldest son, Thomas ALLEN Lechmere was working as a vanguard. We can’t know for certain that he was employed by Pickfords, but it’s a distinct possibility. Would he have used the name of his long dead bigamous grandfather? I reckon not.

[MrBarnett]

From now on it is officially perverse to call the man Charles Cross. ;-)

[MrBarnett]

Proof that he was known as Lechmere by at least one of his neighbours in 1869.

The father’s name on the cert should of course be John, not Charles. But the point is that Mary Ann Marshall was aware of the Lechmere name - while Thomas Cross was still alive!

[MrBarnett]

Proof that he was known as Lechmere by at least one of his neighbours in 1869.

[MrBarnett]

Another great find, RJ!

Scandal’s bad enough, but when it’s made even worse by press distortion...

Who in their right mind would’ve volunteered their real (unique) name if they felt they could’ve got away with a handy alternative?

Not the son of Ma L, if my assessment of her character is even remotely accurate.

[MrBarnett]

An early account of the suicide is considerably more sensational, and offers us a cautionary tale.

The troubled barge worker is now a jovial sea captain. James Bostock is now Edward Broderick. His apoplectic fit is now a throat-slashing.

Another great find, RJ!

[MrBarnett]

>>There were three 20-something carmen living at 11, Mary Ann Street alongside Ma Lechmere in 1871, CAL, Alfred Croote and George Blencowe. <<

Except, of course, she wasn't Ma Lechmere in 1871, she was Ma Cross.

>>And Lizzie presumably knew that CAL was CAL before their wedding day. Ditto her parents and numerous siblings? <<

A key point!

Although they attended a "Lechmere" wedding, they all had to know the Cross connection, making the use of Cross at the inquest not something that hid his identity from close family, friends and acquaintances as has been suggested by some in the past. However I do like your notion that it might have been to hide from distant rels.


>>He was probably known by both names and therefore should have given both at the inquests. <<

Could but there was no legal should.


>>His attempt to conceal his identity was so successful that even today we have people who cannot bring themselves to use the L word.<<

I tend to call him Cross when talking all things murder because that was the name he used and Lechmere when talking non murder. And sometimes Crossmere.

Ma was never legally married to Cross - or Forsdike for that matter - so it’s Ma Lechmere for me.

And it’s Charles Lechmere for me, because that is a name he used repeatedly. And not just on official forms. Anyone who attended his wedding or his christening, anyone who knew him through his kids and later anyone who knew him through his shop and coffee rooms or attended his funeral would have associated him with the name Lechmere.

As for Cross, it was a name written on a census form in 1861, which no-one would have seen for a hundred years, but it may have been the name he was known as at Pickfords. I’m sure Pickfords would have been all over the 1876 incident, and it’s unlikely - though not impossible - that he would have used a name they were unfamiliar with. I’m fairly confident the 1876 CC was our man, but not 100% certain.

On balance, I see more to suggest he was widely known as Lechmere in 1888 than I do that he was as Cross.

[rjpalmer]

An early account of the suicide is considerably more sensational, and offers us a cautionary tale.

The troubled barge worker is now a jovial sea captain. James Bostock is now Edward Broderick. His apoplectic fit is now a throat-slashing.

[drstrange169]

>>Coleridge and DeQuincy.<<

Charles Dodgson was a big fan of DeQuincy, maybe there an anagram or two to find;-)

Great finds by RJ and Gary on the Bostocks. My damn Brit Lib subscription ran out yesterday and now I have to wait till fathers day for the kids to re-new it.

[drstrange169]

>>There were three 20-something carmen living at 11, Mary Ann Street alongside Ma Lechmere in 1871, CAL, Alfred Croote and George Blencowe. <<

Except, of course, she wasn't Ma Lechmere in 1871, she was Ma Cross.

>>And Lizzie presumably knew that CAL was CAL before their wedding day. Ditto her parents and numerous siblings? <<

A key point!

Although they attended a "Lechmere" wedding, they all had to know the Cross connection, making the use of Cross at the inquest not something that hid his identity from close family, friends and acquaintances as has been suggested by some in the past. However I do like your notion that it might have been to hide from distant rels.


>>He was probably known by both names and therefore should have given both at the inquests. <<

Could but there was no legal should.


>>His attempt to conceal his identity was so successful that even today we have people who cannot bring themselves to use the L word.<<

I tend to call him Cross when talking all things murder because that was the name he used and Lechmere when talking non murder. And sometimes Crossmere.