Framing Charles

[MrBarnett]

>Of course, we have no proof of what name he was generally known by.<<

Name of his step dad when he joined Pickfords? Cross
Name on the census when his Step dad was alive? Cross
Name the man Pickford representatives dealt with at the accident inquest? Cross.
Name used at Mrs Nichols inquest when he appeared in his Pickfords uniform? Cross

Of course, we have no proof of what name he was generally known by at Pickfords.

Seems we may almost have a meeting of minds?

He was probably known by both names and therefore should have given both at the inquests. He didn’t, he withheld one - the one that, if it had appeared in the papers, would have linked him uniquely to two very unpleasant events.

His attempt to conceal his identity was so successful that even today we have people who cannot bring themselves to use the L word.

[MrBarnett]

>>I wonder how many people attended CAL’s wedding to Elizabeth Bostock in 1870, and whether when the vicar started speaking the congregation began whispering ‘Lechmere? Who’s this Charles ALLEN Lechmere? I thought this was Charlie Cross’s wedding.’<<

Well, of course, Lizzie Lechmere, certain knew Ma Cross, as she was calling her self, at the time. Depending on how long they courted, she might have met Tom too.

And Lizzie presumably knew that CAL was CAL before their wedding day. Ditto her parents and numerous siblings?

[MrBarnett]

>>‘Oh you mean Charlie Lechmere. I’ve known him for years. My kids went to school with the Lechmere kids and I went to his wedding. Did you ever hear his story about being descended from ‘erefordshire’ gentry? Charles HALLEN Lechmere no less.’<<

That be the one, 'course, I'd known a bit longer than you, since 'e's old step dad Tommie Cross took 'I'm down 'ter Pickfords fer 'es first job. Imagine the shock I got years later when I found out he was also calling 'im self Lechmere out side 'er work!

Your cockney’s better than mine!



‘Oh, so you never got an invite to the wedding, then?’

‘Nah, I didn’t know ‘im that well.’



There were three 20-something carmen living at 11, Mary Ann Street alongside Ma Lechmere in 1871, CAL, Alfred Croote and George Blencowe. The household set up is slightly confusing, but Blencowe at least was Ma’s lodger. He ended up in an asylum suffering from ‘mania’.

[drstrange169]

>Of course, we have no proof of what name he was generally known by.<<

Name of his step dad when he joined Pickfords? Cross
Name on the census when his Step dad was alive? Cross
Name the man Pickford representatives dealt with at the accident inquest? Cross.
Name used at Mrs Nichols inquest when he appeared in his Pickfords uniform? Cross

Of course, we have no proof of what name he was generally known by at Pickfords.

[drstrange169]

>>’Have you seen the misprint on the memorial card? It says Charles ALLEN Lechmere. What a disgrace!’<<

That what he called himself when selling brussels and bananas to customers.

[drstrange169]

>>I wonder how many people attended CAL’s wedding to Elizabeth Bostock in 1870, and whether when the vicar started speaking the congregation began whispering ‘Lechmere? Who’s this Charles ALLEN Lechmere? I thought this was Charlie Cross’s wedding.’<<

Well, of course, Lizzie Lechmere, certain knew Ma Cross, as she was calling her self, at the time. Depending on how long they courted, she might have met Tom too.

[MrBarnett]

Is there any documentation after the the murders and before his death of him switching names.

also off topic in the documentary it indicates he became a wealthy man in later years . How did he make his money .

what name is on his death certificate ?

Name on his death cert? Charles ALLEN Lechmere.
Name in the index of deaths? Charles A Lechmere.
Name in the burial register? Charles ALLEN Lechmere.
Name on the memorial card? Charles ALLEN Lechmere.

Of course, we have no proof of what name he was generally known by.

[drstrange169]

>>‘Oh you mean Charlie Lechmere. I’ve known him for years. My kids went to school with the Lechmere kids and I went to his wedding. Did you ever hear his story about being descended from ‘erefordshire’ gentry? Charles HALLEN Lechmere no less.’<<

That be the one, 'course, I'd known a bit longer than you, since 'e's old step dad Tommie Cross took 'I'm down 'ter Pickfords fer 'es first job. Imagine the shock I got years later when I found out he was also calling 'im self Lechmere out side 'er work!

[MrBarnett]

I wonder how many people attended CAL’s wedding to Elizabeth Bostock in 1870, and whether when the vicar started speaking the congregation began whispering ‘Lechmere? Who’s this Charles ALLEN Lechmere? I thought this was Charlie Cross’s wedding.’

Ditto the funeral.

’Have you seen the misprint on the memorial card? It says Charles ALLEN Lechmere. What a disgrace!’

[MrBarnett]

I wonder how many people attended CAL’s wedding to Elizabeth Bostock in 1870, and whether when the vicar started speaking the congregation began whispering ‘Lechmere? Who’s this Charles ALLEN Lechmere? I thought this was Charlie Cross’s wedding.’

[MrBarnett]

Evidence that Nichols was attacked before the arrival of Cross,is supplied by Cross himself,the first witness at the scene,and to a lesser extent by Paul,who arrived seconds later.Although neither declares to having observed the injuries,they were able to state Nichols was either dead or dying.There was no time between their leaving and the arrival of Neil,for anyone else to intervene.

How does Paul coming across Lechmere (that’s his name) standing by an already dead or dying woman provide evidence that she was attacked before Lechmere arrived? For all Paul knew Charles ALLEN Lechmere could have arrived 2 minutes or 2 hours earlier.

[MrBarnett]

Let me slightly amend your conversation Gary,

A conversation between two old Pickford employees in 1905:

‘Lets meet up for a coffee later. At Charlie Cross’s’

’Where’s that?’

‘It’s in Campbell Road. You can’t miss it, you’ll see the name CHARLES ALLEN LECHMERE above the door.’

‘Oh you mean Charlie Lechmere. I’ve known him for years. My kids went to school with the Lechmere kids and I went to his wedding. Did you ever hear his story about being descended from ‘erefordshire’ gentry? Charles HALLEN Lechmere no less.’

[harry]

Evidence that Nichols was attacked before the arrival of Cross,is supplied by Cross himself,the first witness at the scene,and to a lesser extent by Paul,who arrived seconds later.Although neither declares to having observed the injuries,they were able to state Nichols was either dead or dying.There was no time between their leaving and the arrival of Neil,for anyone else to intervene.

[drstrange169]

>>Is there any documentation after the the murders and before his death of him switching names.<<

Outside of Pickfords he and his family were always called Lechmere, as far as we know.


>> also off topic in the documentary it indicates he became a wealthy man in later years . How did he make his money .<<

I don't think you could call him wealthy, but he did leave effects of 262 pounds in 1920 according to probate records. I won't rely on the doco for too much accuracy.


>>what name is on his death certificate ? <<

Lechmere

[drstrange169]

Let me slightly amend your conversation Gary,

A conversation between two old Pickford employees in 1905:

‘Lets meet up for a coffee later. At Charlie Cross’s’

’Where’s that?’

‘It’s in Campbell Road. You can’t miss it, you’ll see the name CHARLES ALLEN LECHMERE above the door.’