Why is the possibility of Lechmere interrupting the ripper so often discarded?

[Newbie]

This is the type of thing I'm talking about. All of the above is nonsense. It has no bearing whatsoever on the case.

Wow, all nonsense? Every word? That's bringing the old iron hand down.

I guess i write for myself to organize some ideas and couldn't really give a damn what some posters think.

[Newbie]

Lechmere's address was published. Same as Henry John Holland's address.

Christer Holmgren used to beat this faulty argument into the ground but since the revelation about Holland...not so much as a peep.

I'm assuming he has abandoned it and I recommend that you do the same.


Charles Lechmere and the Curious Case of Henry John Holland - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

We went over this before.
Lech's address was published in only one newspaper, or have you discovered more?
In every other newspaper account, Lech's address & that of one other individual out of a dozen or so witnesses, was conspicuously absent.

Either every newspaper correspondent, save one, failed to pick up on Lech's address in court after it was announced;
or one curious newspaper correspondent went to the police to get the address.

Which do you think is more likely?

[Newbie]

Why would Lechmere have to go anywhere at 3:37 (IF he actually arrived at the crime scene at that time)? Wouldn’t he still have to find Nichols, get engaged with her, strangle her, put her down, cut her throat, etc.?


If he knew where Neil was, as you suggest, he would know Neil was more than 200 metres away from him and would have passed Buck’s Row in a handful of seconds, going further north along Baker’s Row. So, there would have been no risk for him to have walked away in a western direction. He would have known that he could get away through Wood’s Buildings, Court Street or even the southern part of Thomas Street without being seen.


How long do you think it would have taken Paul to arrive at the crime scene after he’d heard footsteps up ahead of him, then see the body and discover that she was dead and murdered, too? Two seconds, five, ten?

It depends on when you would start timing Paul's walk up Buck's row to the body:
walking from the intersection of Brady & Buck's row (100 meters plus) will take a bit more than a minute at a normal pace;
walking from the murder scene to Baker street would take longer;
walking up Buck's row, getting onto Winthrop and then heading back down to Brady street would take the longest time of all.
Remember Paul thought immediately that the woman had been outraged (raped) when he looked at the body....he would have easily & rapidly
speculated that the steps walking ahead would be that of the rapist.

However, what matters is not how quickly Paul would have reacted, its what the perpetrator might think....and he would not exactly know where Paul was on Buck's row when he had to make his decision. Some suggest that Paul might have missed seeing the body (entirely possible), or if he had seen the body, would not have done anything (also quite possible); but a murderer would not imagine that his murder victim was inconspicuous, nor that the approaching individual would be indifferent: he would most likely expect the exact opposite.

In reality, if Lechmere heard Paul when he was only some 60 metres away from him and Paul walked at a speed of 6 km/hr, it would have taken Paul some 35 seconds before he would have reached the body. Then he still had to see it, walk over to it, examine it and only at that point he could have raised an alarm for murder. But even after only some 20 seconds, Neil would have disappeared behind a large number of houses and buildings between the crime spot and himself north of Buck’s Row on Baker’s Row, rendering it quite difficult for him to immediately hear Paul’s screams. And if Lechmere’s supposed to have heard Paul the moment he entered Buck’s Row from Brady Street (some 120 metres away), then he would have ample more time to get away before Paul would ever raise any alarm and Neil would have heard it.


So, if Lechmere knew that Neil was close to the intersection Buck’s Row-Baker’s Row when he first heard Paul, then staying put would not have been as good as the other options. In fact, walking away in a western direction would be the less riskiest thing he could do.



Why head back to Brady Street through Winthrop Street? Why not turn into Wood’s Buildings and walk into Whitechapel Road?

It would have been a long, long walk to safety for Lech, before he could get definitively away. When I said that Neil (possibly) was around the intersection of Buck's row & Baker street, it means that Lech couldn't be certain exactly where Neil was: he might have already passed by Buck's row while heading up Baker street, or he could be approaching that intersection. Sound waves diffract around the edges of buildings, so it wouldn't be silence unless PC Neil was on Buck's row.

Winthrop would have been safer, because Lech is heading towards Neil (possibly) for only 50 or so yards, before doubling back. The route you suggest would take him further up Buck's row and potentially closer to a police constable (& if he ran in the early morning hours, it would be bound to make any PC think he was up to no good).

All these escape routes are possible, of course: they have the potential to take longer than the shortest time Paul would cry out (if he acted in that fashion). I mentioned that heading towards the stranger Paul could have been the best of all choices, who probably wouldn't be able to give a decent identification, but Lech would be heading away from PC Neil, and the constable heading up Brady wouldn't be at the Brady/Buck's row intersection for another 7 minutes.

[FrankO]

But PC Neil's route would have Neil near the corner of Baker and Buck's row at 3:37 am. So, the question for you is: in what direction would he go?

Why would Lechmere have to go anywhere at 3:37 (IF he actually arrived at the crime scene at that time)? Wouldn’t he still have to find Nichols, get engaged with her, strangle her, put her down, cut her throat, etc.?

Towards, Paul or towards PC Neil?

If he knew where Neil was, as you suggest, he would know Neil was more than 200 metres away from him and would have passed Buck’s Row in a handful of seconds, going further north along Baker’s Row. So, there would have been no risk for him to have walked away in a western direction. He would have known that he could get away through Wood’s Buildings, Court Street or even the southern part of Thomas Street without being seen.

If you are walking towards Neil, and Paul hears your footsteps, discovers the body and starts shouting out that a murder has been committed...thinking that the person walking away had something to do with it, what then do you think PC Neil would do?

How long do you think it would have taken Paul to arrive at the crime scene after he’d heard footsteps up ahead of him, then see the body and discover that she was dead and murdered, too? Two seconds, five, ten?

In reality, if Lechmere heard Paul when he was only some 60 metres away from him and Paul walked at a speed of 6 km/hr, it would have taken Paul some 35 seconds before he would have reached the body. Then he still had to see it, walk over to it, examine it and only at that point he could have raised an alarm for murder. But even after only some 20 seconds, Neil would have disappeared behind a large number of houses and buildings between the crime spot and himself north of Buck’s Row on Baker’s Row, rendering it quite difficult for him to immediately hear Paul’s screams. And if Lechmere’s supposed to have heard Paul the moment he entered Buck’s Row from Brady Street (some 120 metres away), then he would have ample more time to get away before Paul would ever raise any alarm and Neil would have heard it.

It would be better to head towards Paul, who might not notice him to the extent that he couldn't give a good description after the fact. Staying put would be as good as either option.

So, if Lechmere knew that Neil was close to the intersection Buck’s Row-Baker’s Row when he first heard Paul, then staying put would not have been as good as the other options. In fact, walking away in a western direction would be the less riskiest thing he could do.

A final possibility would be heading towards Neil some 50 yards, taking a left for another 30 yards to get onto Winthrop street, and then heading back to Brady,....all while walking to attract as little attention as you can. That places you trapped on a no exit street for some 150 + yards.

Why head back to Brady Street through Winthrop Street? Why not turn into Wood’s Buildings and walk into Whitechapel Road?

[MrBarnett]

-- Twenty seconds' walk away. I did it the other weekend. Pics to follow...

M.

It took me twice as long, but I was trying to imagine carrying a heavy sack on my shoulder. Can’t wait to see the pics.

[Mark J D]

... When I think of Lechmere, it’s the Pinchin Street case that stands out most, because of the location of the arch itself and more recently because of those intriguing cats meat sheds a minute’s walk away...

-- Twenty seconds' walk away. I did it the other weekend. Pics to follow...

M.

[Fisherman]

Lechmere's address was published. Same as Henry John Holland's address.

Christer Holmgren used to beat this faulty argument into the ground but since the revelation about Holland...not so much as a peep.

I'm assuming he has abandoned it and I recommend that you do the same.


Charles Lechmere and the Curious Case of Henry John Holland - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

I will make an exception to the rule of not posting here, since I do not want you to misuse my absence by suggesting things on my behalf that are not true.

No, I have not ”abandoned” my take on the matter, and no, the Holland material is no reason to do so.

There’s your peep for you. Kindly avoid trying to voice your own thinking as if it was mine in the future.

[rjpalmer]

You don't furnish you address, nor the name that you go by, because you want to maintain your anonymity when report of the proceedings is published in newspapers.

Lechmere's address was published. Same as Henry John Holland's address.

Christer Holmgren used to beat this faulty argument into the ground but since the revelation about Holland...not so much as a peep.

I'm assuming he has abandoned it and I recommend that you do the same.


Charles Lechmere and the Curious Case of Henry John Holland - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Aethelwulf]

As for being at the inquest in his working clothes, he probably didn't go to work that day and paid for a replacement as was the custom. And if for some odd chance he did go to work, why not return home to get into your work clothes? Its only a 7 - 8 minute trip back. The inquest was a respectable social gathering, not a pub; i find it difficult to believe that a future proprietor like Lech would appear at such an event like a common menial laborer.

You go to an inquest in your work clothes because you are pretending to go to work. You don't furnish you address, nor the name that you go by, because you want to maintain your anonymity when report of the proceedings is published in newspapers.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about. All of the above is nonsense. It has no bearing whatsoever on the case.

[John Wheat]

The name is of issue, but not for the reasons people have expressed.

He was never a suspect. There were no dots to join from their perspective: a family man found to be at the time and place where one would expect him to be on his way to work. A worker at a reputable business for 20 years, as Lech dutifully brought up at the inquest.

The Victorian mind had difficulty wrapping their minds around the possibility that such a person could be a killer.

They were looking for the criminally insane, foreigners, or people with known incidences of violence towards women.

None of that means the Police would not have traced the name back to Lechmere.

[Newbie]

repeated previous post.

[Newbie]

Hi Newbie,

Welcome to the forum.

Your points are very logical and I agree with most of them. I don't believe that Lechmere found Polly in Buck's Row, unless she was sleeping in the gateway. More likely he would have picked her up on Whitechapel Road, which means that he left home earlier than he stated. When I used to start early at work and arose at 5:30am my wife barely stirred and would have had no clue as to what time I left the house, so Mrs Lechmere may have not have had a clue as to his departure time. If he were innocent he would have had no reason to hide the finding of the body from his wife and friends, so the false name would not have been necessary for that purpose.

With regard to the side of the road that he walked, he approached Buck's Row from the north and would leave it towards the north so it makes sense that saty on that side of the road.

Cheers, George

Thank you George,

I was here before last Fall....but illness forced me to suspend my activities here.

My mom was a German hausfrau, from a different era - so i have a different perspective;
she would have got up with my father at 3 am, preparing his breakfast and lunch for the day.
It would have been her perceived duty.

I imagine Victorian era proper English house wives had similar expectations and perceptions.

Having said that, it certainly is possible that she would not get up with her husband and was ignorant of his goings,
which would render everything i said moot.

As to the side of the ride he was travelling, it was contrary to the typical traffic flow of traffic for England.
Neal, for instance, was walking on the same side, going the opposite way. Its what people habitually do,
walk with the flow of traffic or down the middle on empty streets. Not really a big deal,
just a little oddity. I've always felt it was a matter of Lech exaggerating his distance from the body.

If innocent, Lech had reason to be nervous that people would falsely accuse him.....so, that part is understandable.

[Newbie]

Hi Abby

Are you seriously telling me the police of the time didn't join the dots? Because if you are you're living in cloud cuckoo land. The name is a non issue.

The name is of issue, but not for the reasons people have expressed.

He was never a suspect. There were no dots to join from their perspective: a family man found to be at the time and place where one would expect him to be on his way to work. A worker at a reputable business for 20 years, as Lech dutifully brought up at the inquest.

The Victorian mind had difficulty wrapping their minds around the possibility that such a person could be a killer.

They were looking for the criminally insane, foreigners, or people with known incidences of violence towards women.

[Newbie]

fraid you started this so it's up to you to show lech was doing something sinister. I don't mind lech as a suspect to be fair, what annoys me, as with a lot of the suspects, is the weaving of fantasies out of nothing. He was in the road, that is it. Suddenly he's downsizing his family because of some attack that went wrong, suffering some illness in October that kept him off the streets, he's at the inquest in ordinary work clothes - so what? Also, even if the ripper attacked Tabram, this was his first on street mutilation - I've read comments saying he was so engrossed he didn't hear Paul. I'm just not buying that. I would say at all of the crime scenes he would have been hyper aware and been long gone by the time Paul got there. So what if he walked past a pc, who's to say he would have been stopped? As an example, and even if you don't rate Farmer as a ripper victim, after a right old ruckus her attacker made off past two PCs in broad daylight - neither stopped him or made any pursuit.

I missed some other points you made.

I'm not selling the so engrossed in his work idea ("the haze of slicing");
I'm selling the opposite, that he was aware for some time and had a quick decision to make: never being certain how far away the stranger was.

I'm not peddling the idea of Lechmerer suffering some illness during October, it not being needed: why JtR chose to remain inactive during this period
is a fact.....regardless of the suspect. Lech doesn't need to be certifiably incapacitated or out of town to maintain him as a suspect.

As for being at the inquest in his working clothes, he probably didn't go to work that day and paid for a replacement as was the custom. And if for some odd chance he did go to work, why not return home to get into your work clothes? Its only a 7 - 8 minute trip back. The inquest was a respectable social gathering, not a pub; i find it difficult to believe that a future proprietor like Lech would appear at such an event like a common menial laborer.

You go to an inquest in your work clothes because you are pretending to go to work. You don't furnish you address, nor the name that you go by, because you want to maintain your anonymity when report of the proceedings is published in newspapers.

[Newbie]

Presumably looking at the body he'd just discovered.

From the middle of the street? Its questionable that he could discern what her sex was from there, much less her condition.
PC Neil testified that he saw "a figure" from the opposite side of the street....how much difference did a few steps make?

In actuality, he said that he stopped, suddenly hearing footsteps, and turned towards Paul.
Why did he suddenly hear the footsteps walking behind him? One imagines he would have heard them well beforehand.

Hearing those footsteps right then is very important to his claim of why he was standing there, instead of having proceeded to the body.

I think its more likely that he was standing next to the body, heard footsteps well down the street, and headed out to the
middle of the street to wait for the stranger.

Paul, not mentioning hearing footsteps ahead, helps this claim.