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  • Lechmere Validity 2.0

    Good day to you all


    I have a few general questions regarding the approximate timings surrounding the discovery of Polly Nichols by Lechmere and the window of opportunity for other potential suspects being JTR.

    I have read many threads which try to ascertain the timings between Lechmere finding the body to Paul seeing Lechmere standing by the body and how this could then either implicate Lechmere or negate the need for him to be considered as a suspect in the first place.

    However, my point is this...

    If we leave Paul to one side and focus more on the timings from Nichols being slain to when Lechmere claims he discovered her body, then we may have a more accurate capability to rule Lechmere either in or out as a strong suspect.

    The key perhaps is to base the initial focus on the exact point after PC Neil has passed the murder scene.
    This according to Neil was approximately half an hour before.

    We can then be certain that the murder took place at some time between PC Neil passing through Bucks Row to the exact moment Lechmere discovered the body.

    Establishing the exact timings isn't of course the key aspect, it's whether these timings are viable enough to make Lechmere a truly valid suspect, albeit circumstantially.

    It's more than likely that Lechmere would have heard Paul approaching and so it therefore seems more than reasonable to assume that Lechmere himself would have been heard entering Bucks Row by JTR in the exact same way.

    Considering that Lechmere never stated that he heard someone ahead of him as he walked up Bucks Row, we can also assume that the real killer would have left the scene BEFORE Lechmere approached.


    My question therefore is...

    What is maximum amount of possible time between PC Neil passing through the murder site, to when JTR WOULD have heard Lechmere walking down Bucks Row?

    And secondly...

    Based on the witness statements of BOTH Paul and PC Neil with regards to their relative observations of Nichols, would there have been enough time for JTR to have fled the scene between PC Neil leaving to Lechmere arriving?

    In other words, if Paul stated that he thought that Nichols was alive, (albeit barely)
    AND PC Neil stated that her arm was quite warm from the joint upwards

    Then how long medically would it have taken for Nichols to have succumbed to her wounds in relation to the time it would have taken JTR to have fled before Lechmere arrived?

    If Paul and Neil thought she was alive and had a warm arm (respectively,)
    ...then would there have been time for JTR to have passed down the street (WITH OR WITHOUT NICHOLS) after PC Neil had previously passed through, to then mutilate Nichols, and then leave the crime scene BEFORE Lechmere entered Bucks Row?

    PC Neil stated that he passed through about half an hour before.

    So if JTR wasn't Lechmere, then how was Nichol's body discovered as both warm (upper arm) by Neil and alive (barely) by Paul

    Let's assume that JTR entered Bucks Row very shortly after Neil had left...Would it be even possible for Nichols to have taken so long to have been attacked, strangled, mutilated, bleed out, succumb to her wounds and then STILL remain warm 30 minutes later?!

    Based on her condition from both Neil's and Paul's individual perspectives, would it seem much more likely that JTR committed the crime much closer to the moment Lechmere entered Bucks Row rather than when PC Neil had previously passed through?

    This would then cut down the time scale and make it much more viable for Nichols to still be displaying signs of life.

    Based on he assumption that JTR fled the scene very close to the time Lechmere arrived (BUT long enough for JTR to have fled without Lechmere hearing him)
    Then how long could this have viably been?

    I also ask this...

    If it wasn't Lechmere, then was there enough time for it to have been someone else considering Paul and PC Neil's independent observations?

    When you add in Paul and Neil, was there actually time for it to have NOT been Lechmere?


    The case continues...


    Thoughts, theories and onslaughts please...


    TRD






  • #2
    Consult any Chapman thread for a lengthy discussion of what inferences you can (or cannot) draw about time of death from the temperature of the body. Even observations by Victorian doctors are not necessarily well informed, and observations by either the PC or Paul are similarly of dubious reliability.

    We don't know what the Ripper's intentions were with Nichols. It's possible he wanted to do extensive mutilations and was forced to flee by the coming of Lechmere or Paul (if he was Lechmere). It's also possible that he did all the cuts he wanted and left before Lechmere/Paul were close.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
      The key perhaps is to base the initial focus on the exact point after PC Neil has passed the murder scene.
      This according to Neil was approximately half an hour before.
      It would be hard to use exact timings based on events that are approximated.

      Comment


      • #4
        Therein lies the rub.

        TRD

        Comment


        • #5
          I strongly recommend you read Steve Blomer's book on the Buck's Row murder, which has exhaustively detailed the timings.
          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            Therein lies the rub.

            TRD
            You decoded that From Hell letter yet?
            Thems the Vagaries.....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

              You decoded that From Hell letter yet?
              Beat me to it Al.
              Regards

              Herlock



              “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

              “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

              ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

              Comment


              • #8

                a few points,

                Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                Good day to you all


                I have a few general questions regarding the approximate timings surrounding the discovery of Polly Nichols by Lechmere and the window of opportunity for other potential suspects being JTR.

                I have read many threads which try to ascertain the timings between Lechmere finding the body to Paul seeing Lechmere standing by the body and how this could then either implicate Lechmere or negate the need for him to be considered as a suspect in the first place.

                However, my point is this...

                If we leave Paul to one side and focus more on the timings from Nichols being slain to when Lechmere claims he discovered her body, then we may have a more accurate capability to rule Lechmere either in or out as a strong suspect.

                The key perhaps is to base the initial focus on the exact point after PC Neil has passed the murder scene.
                This according to Neil was approximately half an hour before.

                We can then be certain that the murder took place at some time between PC Neil passing through Bucks Row to the exact moment Lechmere discovered the body.

                Establishing the exact timings isn't of course the key aspect, it's whether these timings are viable enough to make Lechmere a truly valid suspect, albeit circumstantially.

                It's more than likely that Lechmere would have heard Paul approaching and so it therefore seems more than reasonable to assume that Lechmere himself would have been heard entering Bucks Row by JTR in the exact same way.

                Considering that Lechmere never stated that he heard someone ahead of him as he walked up Bucks Row, we can also assume that the real killer would have left the scene BEFORE Lechmere approached.


                My question therefore is...

                What is maximum amount of possible time between PC Neil passing through the murder site, to when JTR WOULD have heard Lechmere walking down Bucks Row?
                the issue of a lack of syncronized time means its impossible to give any exact times either max or min for how long before lechmere arrived did Neil passed

                however on a rough estitimate Neil says he passes around 3.15, and lechmere says he leaves home at around 3.30.
                it takes a minimun of 7 mins to walk to Browns yard from Doveton St.
                so if we accept the timings of both Neil and lechmere we have a window of around 20-25 min.
                we are however much tighter on how long after Lechmere and Paul left the body. and Neil arrived.
                taking the statements of all 3, using various possible walking speeds and known police beat times Neil could not arrive until some 3 minutes after the carmen leave, not the few seconds often claimed.

                Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                And secondly...

                Based on the witness statements of BOTH Paul and PC Neil with regards to their relative observations of Nichols, would there have been enough time for JTR to have fled the scene between PC Neil leaving to Lechmere arriving?

                In other words, if Paul stated that he thought that Nichols was alive, (albeit barely)
                AND PC Neil stated that her arm was quite warm from the joint upwards

                Then how long medically would it have taken for Nichols to have succumbed to her wounds in relation to the time it would have taken JTR to have fled before Lechmere arrived?

                If Paul and Neil thought she was alive and had a warm arm (respectively,)
                ...then would there have been time for JTR to have passed down the street (WITH OR WITHOUT NICHOLS) after PC Neil had previously passed through, to then mutilate Nichols, and then leave the crime scene BEFORE Lechmere entered Bucks Row?

                PC Neil stated that he passed through about half an hour before.

                So if JTR wasn't Lechmere, then how was Nichol's body discovered as both warm (upper arm) by Neil and alive (barely) by Paul
                lets be clear here, in the same statement where Paul says he thinks she could be breathing, he also say he thinks she is dead.

                paul is far from clear about what he thinks.

                looking at her injuries, Nichols heart would start to fail some 3 minutes after her throat was cut. ample time for a killer to quietly slip away in the shadows of the wall and school.

                Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                Let's assume that JTR entered Bucks Row very shortly after Neil had left...Would it be even possible for Nichols to have taken so long to have been attacked, strangled, mutilated, bleed out, succumb to her wounds and then STILL remain warm 30 minutes later?!

                Based on her condition from both Neil's and Paul's individual perspectives, would it seem much more likely that JTR committed the crime much closer to the moment Lechmere entered Bucks Row rather than when PC Neil had previously passed through?

                This would then cut down the time scale and make it much more viable for Nichols to still be displaying signs of life.

                Based on he assumption that JTR fled the scene very close to the time Lechmere arrived (BUT long enough for JTR to have fled without Lechmere hearing him)
                Then how long could this have viably been?

                I also ask this...

                If it wasn't Lechmere, then was there enough time for it to have been someone else considering Paul and PC Neil's independent observations?

                When you add in Paul and Neil, was there actually time for it to have NOT been Lechmere?


                The case continues...


                Thoughts, theories and onslaughts please...


                TRD

                Was there enough time , certainly.
                The major issue here is taking the absolute times given as set in stone.
                They are not, they are ALL estimates, maybe 5 minutes of more out.
                The timings, wounds, bleeding are all covered in my work INSIDE BUCKS ROW



                Steve

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you Steve, everything you mention is very well put and i appreciate you taking the time to respond to my queries and theories.


                  I must concur with your comments about Paul. It seems very apparent that he completely contradicts himself regarding his opinion on the condition of Nichols.

                  This is quite baffling and frustrating.






                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Steve, is your most bang up to date version of "inside Bucks Row" available yet?
                    Thems the Vagaries.....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      everybody does realize this is pierre/ Kristina Nordquist/chris
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        She will always be Pierre to me Abby
                        Regards

                        Herlock



                        “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

                        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

                        ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Not everyone Abby. I thought so, but I have it on good authority it's not. I thought the whole Letchmere thing was an underhanded attempt to place Henry Reilly at the scene. But Pierre always promised the moon on a stick, and delivered **** on a stick. The balls in TRD's court.
                          I don't know what's worse, being Pierre, or being accused of being Pierre?
                          ​​​​​​
                          A hidden code in the "From Hell" letter? Unanswered? Very Pierre. Data? Oh my Gogmagog.
                          Thems the Vagaries.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Being accused of being Pierre is absolutely worse.


                            I can assure you i am not the aforementioned Pierre


                            But ironically, my real name is Chris


                            As for the From Hell letter, my research proved inconclusive and so i was reluctant to pursue it for fear of being ridiculed.


                            I was working on the premise of a hidden code within the letter


                            TRD

                            a.k.a. NOT Pierre

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                              Being accused of being Pierre is absolutely worse.


                              I can assure you i am not the aforementioned Pierre


                              But ironically, my real name is Chris


                              As for the From Hell letter, my research proved inconclusive and so i was reluctant to pursue it for fear of being ridiculed.


                              I was working on the premise of a hidden code within the letter


                              TRD

                              a.k.a. NOT Pierre
                              Did this relate to the killers initials being found at the murder sites?
                              Thems the Vagaries.....

                              Comment

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