Scenarios for other murders with Lechmere as culprit

[Ben]

Did anyone else confirm these findings, Lechmere? It's just that there might be some naughty, nasty people out there - not me, of course - who might find it convenient that the result of your unverified perambulations just happened to be the conclusion you jumped to from the get-go. How do I know how "briskly and evenly" you walked, if we're arguing over a (Lech)mere 30 seconds? In fact, how do you really know? If you did Old Montague first, maybe you were a little tired by the time you tackled the third route, and unconsciously slackened your pace? Now you'll tell me you did them on different days.

As I've mentioned previously, the Princelet Street route could have been shortened (by longer than 30 seconds) by entering the terminus building of Liverpool Street station, the western edge of which was extremely close to the Pickfords premises. Your objection to this, on the grounds that he'd have to go down a few stairs and cross a few platforms, wasn't very convincing.

Hi Fisherman,

Apologies for the late reply.

It therefore applies that the Old Montague Street route that he did NOT use on the murder morning WOULD have been quicker than the route he DID use on the murder morning. Therefore, the anomaly remains: He claimed to be late, and still did not use the quickest option.

Yes, but then I offered a list of plausible explanations for this that didn't involve him murdering anyone, and ventured a guess that the vast majority of readers to this thread would opt for one of those.

However! I do NOT think that we ought to work from the assumption that a guy who grew up in St Georges, in comfortable walking distance from ALL the murder venues, and who had been learning how to traverse the East End streets in a professional capacity for more than twenty years, before which he had walked the same streets in an unprofessional capacity in a further one and a half decade,would be unaquainted with that area in any sense at all.

I don't doubt that a man who had grown up in St. Georges would be familiar with the streets of Whitechapel and Spitalfields in a general sense, but would that familiarity extend to knowing the quickest routes (to the nearest 30 seconds!) between a specific area in Bethnal Green and a specific area near Livepool Street? A lot more doubtful. My point was that Cross was new to that particular residence, and had no obvious reason to investigate routes from that residence until he lived there. There would not, therefore, be any "anomaly" at all in taking a nice, short, convenient route to work that was nonetheless not THE shortest.

He was the killer, he wanted to find out how much Paul knew, and wanted to see where he worked, so that he could get to him if he wanted to in the future.

"Get to him" in what sense? If you mean incriminate him, I maintain that this would have backfired owing to the fact that Cross himself took Hanbury Street to work, and let the entire newspaper-reading public know that he did too. Or do you mean kill him?

He also knew the roads inside out, and he intentionally spread the killings so as not to give himself away by killing on one street only.

If he was particularly anxious not to "give himself away" the prudent move, surely, would have been to avoid claiming his next victim on his much publicized route to work only a week later? Anyway, Cross-the-ripper would not have been "spreading" the killings at all, since the victims were all found to the west of his residence. Contrast this with all* other known serial killers who walk to their crime scenes and claim victims where they find them (as you contend Cross did), and whose boltholes are located within area circumscribed by their crimes.

All the best,
Ben

*And I don't think "all" is an exaggeration either.

[Lechmere]

Ben
Your old sparring partner has been banned.

If you doubt my timings or the layout of Liverpool street station then be my guest and do a bit of personal research in that area.
I could even be on hand to provide on the spot corroboration!

The station would in any case have almost certainly been shut before 4am. However the area of commercial street opposite Hanbury street and by Christ church would gave been clogged with wagons from spitalfields market at that hour - I didn't take account of the extra delay that would occasion when walking the non old Montague routes.

[Lechmere]

Ps I walked the old Montague route one morning when I was going somewhere and walked Hanbury on the same afternoon while on my way back.
I did the princelet cut off this morning while on my way somewhere else this morning.
To complete the picture I am typing this on my I phone in Fournier street on my way back again!

I could have done them all briskly one after the other and not got puffed out though. Just so you know.

[Ben]

Hi Lechmere,

I really can't envisage wagon cloggage being an obstacle for anything other than other wagons. A man on foot can simply walk round them - no "delay" at all. Modern day traffic on the busier roads is far more impeding and doubtless affected your route comparisons. Remember that if we're arguing over a matter of 30 seconds here, accuracy has to be essential, and as much as I'd like to rely on your assurance that the briskness of your pace (along with other variables) was identical on all three excursions, I can't. Not that I think arguing over 30 seconds is particularly fruitful exercise when there is:

a) No evidence that Cross ever took Old Montague Street to work.

b) No evidence that he knew it was shorter (which I don't think it is, anyway).

c) Good reason to think that Old Montague Street was avoided because of its reputation.

All the best,
Ben

Edit: I'd be interested to see the evidence that the station would have been closed at 4.00am.

[Lechmere]

As I said it is open to you to check my timings.
30 sEconds is quite a difference over a short walk.
Did Dorset street have a bad rep?

[Cogidubnus]

Bending the argument

Are we really arguing over 30 seconds to a minute...and implying thereby that if Cross/Lechmere didn't logically modify his twelve to fourteen minute route to save this paltry amount he must perforce be more likely to be the Ripper?

I'm sorry Lechmere, but the anecdotal example I quoted earlier in the thread, (and which was instantly ridiculed), involved a pro-rata far greater potential time saving...

Which says it all I'm afraid

All the best

Dave

[FrankO]

A belated thanks, Frank, for your efforts on the mapping front. Most appreciated! All's well here, thanks, and it's great to see you here.

And a belated 'you're welcome', Ben - great to see you too.

How do I know how "briskly and evenly" you walked, if we're arguing over a (Lech)mere 30 seconds? In fact, how do you really know?

That’s why I prefer to express the distances in cool & independent meters/yards rather than in time.

All the best, Ben!
Frank

[Lechmere]

The trouble is a map doesn't show detail such as steps or railings around Christ church and the map lines tend to follow diagonals across roads which isn't how people walk in practice.

Cog
The case against Charles lechmere is based on many points - large and small - that incrementally build to a big case.
He chose to walk a longer route when he said he was so late for work that he had to abandon an apparently helpless woman and didn't want to be delayed by a policeman too much - yet he willingly took about a minute and 15 seconds longer to have the pleasure of paul's company.
It is not an issue with which to hang Charles Lechmere - it is a small extra piece in the puzzle.
The reason this has been discussed at length is because some choose to dispute every facet of the case against Charles lechmere to the nth degree.
That is fair enough as it is a newish theory and theories should be capable of standing up yo close scrutiny.
However it does lead to repetitive postings.

By contrast in the October ripperologist it was revealed that kosminsky's brother lived near Berner street. This was taken as being something that added weight to kosminsky's status as a leading suspect. It is indeed interesting - but was this revelation greeted with scorn - as we don't actually know kosminsky lived there nor do we know what streets he liked to walk down in that area, nor do we know at what times of the day he tended to go a wandering. Nevertheless it remains an interesting fact.
Just as Charles lechmere choosing to walk a route that is a minute and fifteen seconds longer than the shortest route, when he was late for work, is an interesting fact.

[FrankO]

That would go for each of the routes I've measured, Lech. Plus, I don't think going around railings would account for extra 30 seconds.

[Lechmere]

The princelet street route has more turns hence more potential diagonals.
All I can do is report my timings.
I will try and repeat the exercise soon.

[Monty]

The princelet street route has more turns hence more potential diagonals.
All I can do is report my timings.
I will try and repeat the exercise soon.

So will I.

Monty

[Rainbow]

Here is an initial map that summarises how Charles Lechmere East End, circa 1888-89, coincided with the Whitechapel murders.
[ATTACH]14666[/ATTACH]
The blue A is his new house at Doveton Street, where he moved in mid June 1888.
The blue B is his previous house in James Street, where he lived until mid June 1888
The blue C is his workplace at Pickfords, Broad Street.
The blue D is his mother’s house (where one of his daughters also lived) on Cable Street.

The victims found within this area are:
1 Martha Tabram
2 Polly Nichols
3 Annie Chapman
4 Liz Stride
5 Catherine Eddowes
6 Mary Jane Kelly
7 Alice Mackenzie
8 Pinchin Street Torso

The only piece of physical evidemce left – the apron (and graffiti) is marked by the yellow blob.

The Red Line is the shortest route from Doveton Street to Pickfords.
The Blue Line is the route taken on the morning of 31st August (the part after Hanbury Street is conjecture).
The Green Line is the presumed old route to work from James Street to Pickfords

The Purple Lines are to illustrate the fairly uniform distance (comfort zone) between any of the crime scenes and any of Charles Lechmere’s main centre’s of gravity at the time the murders were committed – his house, his mother’s house and his workplace.
The exception is the placing of the Pinchin Street Torso, but that is slightly different as it would be a disposal rather than the scene where the crime was committed.

look at his rout and refresh you memory, wherever Lechmere walk there were murdered women

[John Wheat]

look at his rout and refresh you memory, wherever Lechmere walk there were murdered women

You could say that about anyone who lived in Whitechapel.

[Pierre]

You could say that about anyone who lived in Whitechapel.

Exactly.

Perhaps Mary Jane Kelly was the killer of Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes?