Cross The Ripper?

[MrBarnett]

How does he fit in with the other crimes? I don't think any suggestions have been put forward in regards to this (forgive me if they have, just haven't read them) only that of Nichols.

Hi Natasha,

The answer is, geographically. The theory holds that there were two likely routes from his home to Pickfords in Broad Street. A southern route along Wentworth Street and a northern route along Hanbury Street.

The murders fit nicely into his daily routine as follows:

Smith - southern route.
Tabram - southern route.
Nichols - either.
Chapman - northern route.
Kelly - Northern route.

The double event does not fit into this pattern, but as it was Sat/Sun, we would not expect Lech to be using his working route. It is pointed out that the Stride killing was a few streets away from where his mother lived, and if you accept that he was disturbed there, then Mitre Court was a random choice made out of desperation. And for good measure we have his mother running a cats meat business a few yards away from the railway arch where the Pinchin Street torso was found.

Aside from the geography, there is mention of Lech's attention to detail when filling out forms which is put forward as evidence of a controlling nature and also hints that his mother may have had a similar character. She ran several small businesses and entered into two bigamous marriages.

And one of the spin-offs from the Nichols events is the idea that the Cross name was given to hide his involvement from his illiterate wife.

MrB

[Fisherman]

You need to do more research Christer, far more research.

Your ignorance on Victorian police is telling, and complete.

Monty

No, it is not. You very well know that some high ranking officials did not at all have the kind of education that we would require today. It is not the same as saying that the Victorian police should respond to our requirements, but it IS to say that they had other demands than we have. And phrenology was a very big factor of that era. Not all bought into it, but many did.

It is as simple as that. And you have taken a great dislike to the Lechmere theory, as simple as that. It shows, you know.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Natasha,

The answer is, geographically. The theory holds that there were two likely routes from his home to Pickfords in Broad Street. A southern route along Wentworth Street and a northern route along Hanbury Street.

The murders fit nicely into his daily routine as follows:

Smith - southern route.
Tabram - southern route.
Nichols - either.
Chapman - northern route.
Kelly - Northern route.

The double event does not fit into this pattern, but as it was Sat/Sun, we would not expect Lech to be using his working route. It is pointed out that the Stride killing was a few streets away from where his mother lived, and if you accept that he was disturbed there, then Mitre Court was a random choice made out of desperation. And for good measure we have his mother running a cats meat business a few yards away from the railway arch where the Pinchin Street torso was found.

In addition to the geography, there is mention of Lech's attention to detail when filling out forms which is put forward as evidence of a controlling nature and also hints that his mother may have had a similar character. She ran several small businesses and entered into two bigamous marriages.

And one of the spin-offs from the Nichols events is the idea that the Cross name was given to hide his involvement from his illiterate wife.

MrB

I think you will find that it is all involved in the article, Mr Barnett - plus a few extras. Maybe we should let Natasha read and decide for herself.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish,

'Every single name he writes himself Lechmere'?

I may be being pedantic here, but how many examples of his actual signature do you have? His marriage cert and the 1911 census are all I can find. The bulk of the records are school records where only his forename(s) appears, written presumably by a school official or electoral forms that were compiled by the Electoral Registration Officer.

I stand to be corrected, but the impression I had of Lechmere proudly signing CAL over a hundred times may not have been the case at all.

MrB

Every time we know of, when he signed his name, he signed himself Lechmere.

Every time we know of when he had his name signed for him, it was signed Lechmere.

The exceptions to this are the 1861 census, when his name was signed Charles Cross (in all probability by Thomas Cross, his stepfather), and in the 1888 contacts he had with the police authorities. He name was signed as Charles Cross at that time too, for some reason.

There is the off hand chance that those who signed him Lechmere had actually been told that he carried the name Cross, but inexcplicably, they signed him Lechmere instead. I concede that point. I can only surmise that this is the risk you infer is there since Lechmere did not write his own name on every occasion when dealing with the authorities.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Mr B
Whether or not he literally gave his 'signature' is not the relevant issue - clearly as we are not trying to divine something by analysing his handwriting (although hold that thought as it could open up a whole new area to investigate).
It is what he gave as his name.

[Lechmere]

Monty
Fishernan was obviously refering to the senior political appointee policemen at Scotland Yard rather than those who worked their way up the ranks.
And the criminological theories that were intellectually en vogue among that senior group.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Fish,

Your far more comprehensive account appeared out of nowhere while I was struggling to cobble together my meagre effort.

I don't think Natasha has to make a choice. The Nichols stuff aside, I think my version stands as a reasonable précis of the theory.

MrB

[Fisherman]

Now I have got some gardening to do, so I will leave you clever and cunning boys to it. If something arises while I´m out, I´m sure that I can foresse what it is going to be:
He could have called himself Cross colloquially, he was probably not guilty since he seems such a nice bloke and if it WAS him anyway, he would have run in Bucks Row. And I am ignorant.

Sunny greetings,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish,

Your far more comprehensive account appeared out of nowhere while I was struggling to cobble together my meagre effort.

I don't think Natasha has to make a choice. The Nichols stuff aside, I think my version stands as a reasonable précis of the theory.

MrB

Aha - of course, I should have realized. Sorry for that!

The best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Fish,

Don't forget to plant some of those magic beans - they might grow into something significant.

Seemingly nice blokes can be serial killers.

Criminals often do choose bluff over fight or flight.

And people are very often familiarly known by names other than those they write on forms.

Two out of three's not bad. I agree that anyone who dismisses any of these possibilities is demonstrably ignorant.

MrB

STOP PRESS: On second thoughts, keep hold of the cow!!!

[Monty]

No, it is not. You very well know that some high ranking officials did not at all have the kind of education that we would require today. It is not the same as saying that the Victorian police should repsond to our requirements, but it IS to say that they had other demands than we have. And phrenology was a very big factor of that era. Not all bought into it, but many did.

It is as simple as that. And you have taken a great dislike to the Lechmere theory, as simple as that. It shows, you know.

All the best,
Fisherman

The Cross theory is irrelevant to the point, your comment upon that is just a mere defensive jibe, due to fact the theory isn't as convincing as you desire it.

By high ranking, I assume you are referring to Divisional ranking as opposed to Chief Constable and above? The qualifications were little different from today, and examinations were undertaken.

The Met and City police also maintained a close working relationship with Le Surete and the Parisian force, one of the leading detective organisations at the time, where they exchanged ideas and advanced the use of science in investigative methods.

And whilst Phrenology was looked at by Vidcoq in the mid 1800s, it was Bertillions scientific system of anthropometrics which was being used by 1888. So no, it was not a big factor of that era.

Monty

[MrBarnett]

Ed,

I think the importance of the signature is that it would establish that it was CAL himself who provided the information. Without it we might reasonably assume that his wife provided some, if not all, of it. She was the one who was at home all day and had the time to call at the school to register the kids and to answer the door when the nice man from the ERO came to call. If we are to believe that CAL himself provided the info and that he was anal about his full CAL moniker, then why is the A sometimes missing?

I'm surprised you guys haven't already enlisted the services of a graphologist. That L on the 1911 census looks to my untrained eye a little suspicious. And what are we to make of the refusal to capitalise the a in Allen?

As an aside, does your bank hol. tour include Doveton Street? I hope to attend (heavily disguised) and would like to check out the timings for myself. I don't doubt for a minute that your seven minutes is accurate, but there's nothing like personal experience in these matters.

MrB

[Lechmere]

The only records that his wife might conceivable have given - verbally one must presume because she was illiterate - are the school records. In one such record the children's names is given as Louisa Lechmere and the parent's name given as Charles.
There is only ever one Christian name given in the records I have and not all parent's names are male.
Oh - the only exception to the one Christian name being recorded in the pages have copied where for George William Lechmere, James Alfred Lechmere and Thomas Allen Lechmere - where the father is given as Charles Allen...

Make what you will of that.
The significance in any case is that very clearly the family was known as Lechmere. It would be perverse if the father - the head of he family decided to call himself Cross.

[Lechmere]

The tour will indeed pass Doveton Street and Essex Street School.
Although we will undoubtedly take considerably longer than seven minutes to get to Bucks Row.
But perhaps I could send you ahead at a faster pace to provide stop watch evidence? There's nothing like bringing history alive!

[Jon Guy]

But perhaps I could send you ahead at a faster pace to provide stop watch evidence? There's nothing like bringing history alive!

Don`t forget your running shoes, Mr B !!

You`ve got 15 mins to get from Doveton Street to Whitechapel Rd, pick up a girl, walk back to Bucks Row with said extremely inebriated girl, and do the biz.

Let us know how you got on with the timings.